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Arlington is immune
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Talia
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Arlington is immune Reply with quote

recently came across this article that reminded me of you

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/best-places-to-live-2012/single-family-homes/index.html

remember when you and SATT used to rail against Arlington, arguing that it was not "different" and it too would suffer the same sort of price catastrophy that Lowel and other places saw? Man, after seeing this, and seeing how Arlington prices are STILL above the 2006 peak I cant help but laugh.

Out of curiosity, did you ever apologize for ever being so wrong?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:59 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Arlington is immune Reply with quote

Talia wrote:
...remember when you and SATT used to rail against Arlington, arguing that it was not "different" and it too would suffer the same sort of price catastrophy that Lowel and other places saw?


Please post the link to where I said that Arlington would suffer declines like Lowell (or even Lowel (sic)). Nice straw man there.

Talia wrote:
Man, after seeing this, and seeing how Arlington prices are STILL above the 2006 peak I cant help but laugh.

Out of curiosity, did you ever apologize for ever being so wrong?


If you're going to accuse somebody else of being wrong, you might want to first make sure that you aren't yourself. Prices in Arlington are indeed lower than in 2006 when you adjust for inflation, which is exactly what this site has been stating is the correct way to account for prices from the very start - see The Wayback Machine. In fact, use The Wayback Machine to compare the track record for this site with other real estate focused sites and you will see the record has been excellent.

Even if you were correct, it's a poor metric. 6 years is a wholly inadequate time period to prove that something wasn't overpriced, especially when mortgage rates have been falling the whole time, making the cost of borrowing progressively cheaper, continuing to act as an airbag to the relatively desirable neighborhoods. I can see why that would make you nervous if you instead attributed it to some intrinsic "immunity".

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Former Arlingtonite
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,.

Talking to folks who have bought homes in and around Arlington it the last few months it seems like its 2004-2005 all over again. No one mentions the special effiort that the Fed is going to to reduce Interest rates.

It will be interesting to see what happens to home values when Interest rates eventually rise. Either Income will have to be rising to support the High Prices and High interest rates - Or something will have to give.

I have a bias to believe the best prices will be in front of us due to the Fed being forced to rise interest rates. Consider all the folks who were lucky enough to buy a home in the early 1980s when interest rates were at 12% and higher - they are the folks with the most equity in their homes.

Of course, I might be wrong....sadly this happens.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Former Arlingtonite wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to home values when Interest rates eventually rise. Either Income will have to be rising to support the High Prices and High interest rates - Or something will have to give.


Yeah, my guess is that higher interest rates would be accompanied by price inflation everywhere, including incomes, and just a lot less of it in housing. So real housing prices would decline substantially, even though money illusion might mask some or all of that for those who don't know better. However, I do think that it's possible that interest rates will remain ultra low for decades, and housing prices would therefore not see the direct effect of shrinking leverage. I'm curious what the end result would be in that case given that housing prices haven't just been a function of ultra low interest rates, but also continually declining rates, and even it rates stay ultra low, it's hard to see how they could fall much further. Continually declining interest rates and inflation have set the backdrop for the economy since the early 1980s, and I think that a lot of conventional wisdom is going to break down when it stops, even if it doesn't reverse anytime soon.

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john p



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arlington

I think Arlington feels "Meso" Level forces.

"Macro" Forces being global or national level economic movements and "Micro" meaning one neighborhood versus the next...

Arlington is similar to Newton in that it has access to Cambridge but has a neighborhood feel to it. Young Urban Professionals who want to raise their kids where they have green parks, yet can have a babysitter come so Mom and Dad can go out for a lecture or dinner love Newton or Arlington.... It is the right location for a segment of Young Urban Professionals who want to creep a bit further from the City, but really don't want to be that far from city life, further, it gives younger working parents a chance to get home to the kids at a reasonable hour, and Arlington has some nice places to shop and eat out...

I see Arlington as a town that meets the criteria of successfull young urban professionals with kids, so although many other areas might be suffering more, there ususally will be a segment of buyers wanting to pulg the opportunites in the most desireable areas, provided they are not too overpriced.

I do think Belmont and Winchester are still more exclusive alternatives.

Fewer Buyers

I think that another big thing Massachusetts will deal with is a lack of buyers in general.

When you think about it, once air conditioning was invented, the majority of new cities were in the warmer areas of the Nation. With the Baby Boom retiring and most choosing to live in warmer climates, who will be buying all these homes? Younger familes are severely financially bonded with higher education loans, so they don't have large down payments and few can meet the 20% down until they are in to their mid-30's at least. Even then, the job market is in such flux and opportunities pop up anywhere, that they might decide that pinning themselves down anywhere is sort of risky.

Twenty years ago, people were still concerned that if you moved to say Memphis, you'd be around unsophisticated people and if your company needed brain horsepower it would be hard to be successful. Today, that is less and less the case.

Massachusetts has lost its Charm

You are seeing a rebirth in many city neighborhoods and downtowns, but within the 128 Belt it is just so overdeveloped. There used to be farm stands, horse farms, and you got a sense that you were in New England. In many areas you get the sense that you are in Newark, N.J. I mean to battle traffic, paying ridiculous prices for tolls, MBTA, parking tickets, home heating etc. you need a payoff. When younger families, decades ago could afford a cottage on the Cape and a condo in Ski Country, Massachusetts was an amazing place to live. Prior generations in Massachusetts had much more buying power and that buying power bought a lot better lifestyle. I mean a boat slip costs a fortune today and you have to be on a waiting list for many years.... People who aren't rooted here realize pretty quickly that they can get a much better lifestyle and have to work a lot less to get it in other areas of the country (and in a much warmer climate). It is such a no-brainer that the people that actually decide to stay here are often lacking in common sense.

[b]Population Retiring and Relocating[/b

]If I was a young buyer I'd look at whether or not Massachusetts was considered a good place to retire because the more people that move out of here, the more homes will be available. Further, the Stock Market has determined many people's ability to retire. I know many people that wanted to retire before but lost value in their 401k so they need to work an extra five years or so...
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John F.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin said...Prices in Arlington are indeed lower than in 2006 when you adjust for inflation, which is exactly what this site has been stating is the correct way to account for prices from the very start



Thats great and all, but for alot of us, it kinda rings hollow. I mean, passing on the 500K house in 2006, spending 120K in rent, and THEN paying 510K in 2012 isnt exactly what we hoped for.

Maybe thats what you were advocating all along, but frankly SATT and others made it pretty clear that if we waited long enough, we too would see frog marches.

Yet, we got nothing but grief and anguish from friends and family, none of whom give a shit that prices are lower on an inflation adjusted basis... For me personally, waiting for the bubble bursting to bring so called "reality" to Arlington was perhaps the most disappointing experience of my life.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Maybe thats what you were advocating all along, but frankly SATT and others made it pretty clear that if we waited long enough, we too would see frog marches.


Again, please post a link to where I said that. I have not been saying "wait so you can scoop up bargains," I have been saying buy conservatively (or don't buy) because there are some abnormally large risks. For one, the mortgage rate risk is by no means passed - in fact, it is far greater today than in 2006.

Quote:

Thats great and all, but for alot of us, it kinda rings hollow. I mean, passing on the 500K house in 2006, spending 120K in rent, and THEN paying 510K in 2012 isnt exactly what we hoped for.

It's not exactly bad, though. 6% mortgage interest on 500K and 1% property taxes over 6 years would have been around $200K (ballpark, and ignoring other sunk costs). I would guess you have come out ahead, though that's really not the point. The point is to avoid the risk of declines beyond what you can afford and tolerate. The absence of greater declines over such a short time span hardly means that the risk wasn't there and isn't still.

I'm sorry that your relatives are giving you grief. If it matters at all, my money is where my mouth is. I actually live in Arlington, and I rent by choice.

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john p



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is really, really hard when you are young and you want to gather the best information possible to make heavy decisions that are very difficult to do in today's Economic Context.

Given that there is often propaganda put out there by special interests, websites like this are often sanctuaries for those looking for information that isn't filtered.

Because of this, you might find people on this site that are frustrated by the propaganda and hold the perspective that the market is going to continue to tank, houses will fall another 30 percent while mortgage rates will continue to stay at historic lows.

The challenge now becomes if people who hold these positions are clinging to an ideology simply because they have committed to it for such a long time i.e. Cognitive Dissonance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQW9I02nz74

Are people cherry picking data to support their positions and ignoring basic data which supports a pendulum shift?

I see this exchange as a pinch point of frustration where people are starting to see some signs of an inflection point and are kicking the tires to see if some who are committed to this subject feel any differently.

What I'd like to see John F. do is outline some of the current market condiditons and trends which might indicate that we have reached a bottom and then we can help provide data to provide more material to his decisions i.e. the Dow Jones hitting above 13,000.

John F., Admin may in fact be in the same boat as you in some regard, but I have been around enough to know that he governs himself in a responsible manner and I do not believe he has a dog in the fight one way or the other; he just wants to help people like you to have another tool to look at and track the data.

Also, I kind of agree with your logic to some degree. I did buy in 2006 because I thought that if I didn't get going in my house purchase, I'd be paying my 30 year mortgage when I was in my 70's, which would not provide any daylight to use savings for retirement. Also, I thought about my alternative investments, the stock market or bonds and felt that I were to save about $80k, some of it would be lost in the market correction.

Actually, I was wrong in some ways. I bought a house for $543k which could now be purchased for $500k. If I had my down payment then with the money I could have saved in the past five years or so, I would have 20% down and could qualify for a 15 year note.

If I were to run the numbers as if I bought today, I could have saved about $400 per month and taken about 10 years off my loan. (25 years remaining versus a 15 year note).

I was able to refinance and was able to bring the loan down about $300 and now have 23 years left, but I admit, it would have been a better financial decision to wait.

That being said, I have had 6 years in a home I love, in a community I love. I have a dog and two cats and have hosted a lot of family parties, etc. Life is short and you have to start living at some point, which was the rationale I had anyway. I also didn't enjoy living in the city where you have to deal with parking and traffic and lack of privacy. I have cousins who live in Davis Square and they love it, they can eat great food, go to an Irish Bar, catch a show at the Garden etc. I prefer to ride my motorcycle through the bogs and horse farms and get a drink at a bar overlooking the ocean. If I liked city life, I would have rented and saved...

Beyond all these calculations are some pretty big global movements. When they invented central air conditioning, northern cities really stopped growing and new cities were built in the warmer regions of the Nation.

Going even further back, when it became more efficient in agriculture for larger farms, they kicked out all the smaller farm owners, which ended up sending people into the Cities. This help supply workers for the Industrial Revolution. As machinery got more efficient, you needed fewer and fewer workers. Meanwhile, culturally, families that came from an agricultural culture had big families due to the lower survivability rate and the need for more farm hands. So, with fewer and fewer jobs, families were having more and more kids, and eventually, they migrated to the newly developed regions of the Nation which were growing. As the birth rate has died down and this recent Internet Infrastructure boom beginning to reach later stages of still early growth, the overall economic engine is slowing, at least in the United States.

What I am trying to say is that when I was thinking about buying, I made my spread sheets and had a make or buy decision metric based on my own rubric and made it sort of a math problem.

What you have to do is frame out YOUR LIFE. It is YOUR life, YOUR decision, how YOU want to live. That is sort of hard to figure out, but square up to it the best you can and don't lash out at others who are making decisions based on how they want to live their lives.

We all make mistakes but we can't beat ourselves up for making the best decisions we can at the time they were made.

Creating the wrong basis for decisions that align with how you want to live your life is a bigger mistake.

Here is another example, Massachusetts is a sanctuary for social progress. What is most unfortunate for African Americans is that they fled to the Northern Cities for social sanctuary, to be around people who would accept them, at the same time the Industry was leaving and going South. These people had to deal with a tougher economic condition in order to have social tolerance. Honestly, I would have made the same decision. Massachusetts accepts gay people, so we have a lot of gay people moving here from other areas of the Nation. I see this as a good thing because although in my heart I feel like a misfit, I think that this is the way I was supposed to be, so I accept that people are the way they are for a reason and when people who are different can live together in harmony, they are truly Americans. This, along with having family roots made me want to plant my flag here in Massachusetts. Further, I thought that if other areas were more socially backwards, we would be more intellectually and morally fertile to be more prosperous.

Where I was wrong was that when people get hooked up with a big mortgage, they often lose some of their freedom. They become so financially bonded that they don't ever go out on a limb to take a risk or to extend them to help others. People demostrate courage in socially accepted causes, but don't exhibit moral courage because they want to be held in high regard in society.

John F. Kennedy represented both the Harvard and the Irish Culture. He represented the Academic and Technological Root and Fronteir, while empowering the power of the masses whereby an attack on one indivdiual was an attack on the whole and any predator would feel the wrath of the masses acting as one. Today, we are seeing a dividing of people, Unions look out for themselves, politiicans play crony capitalism and Justice is based on how much money you can pay and who you can influence. Regulators are like watching referees at a Professional Wrestling Match. They pick and choose who to enforce rules on and let whomever they want get a free pass to hit another with a chair.

The Irish Culture and Harvard both were guilty of what St. Peter did to Jesus in denying him three times when he was in custody. Dave Powers was as Irish as you could get, straight from County Cork. He was a Somerville/Cambridge Democrat who was the closest to JFK in his Administration. Kenny O'Donnell was also a working class Irish kid who came up in the Wards with the Kennedy's and he was also a Harvard Alumni. In Tip O' Neil's Autobiography, he talks about a conversation he had with Kenny O'Donnell at Jimmy's on the South Boston Waterfront. Kenny O'Donnell told Tip O'Neil that he heard the shot that killed Kennedy come from the Grassy Knoll but because he did not want to upset the Investigation, he decided to go along with what the FBI told him to say. Dave Powers, also told Tip O'Neil that he heard the shots come from the Grassy Knoll. These men were the most politically powerful people from Massachusetts next to the Kenndy's and they betrayed JFK by not pressing for the truth. They did not have JFK's back, they were as tough as tripe, but lacked Moral Courage to disrupt the social, political apple cart.

This is true today, the Democratic Party has so much corruption, here and in Chicago because people don't want to disrupt the social network. People will deny the truth. This is what Massachusetts is suffering from now. By not having moral courage to disrupt the social apple cart, we have been infested with predators who put on our uniform for sanctuary and political cover.

Mae Brussell is my type of people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Brussell

She was a housewife who bought the full Warren Commission Report, and was the first to provide an index for it.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

from above:

Quote:
"My concern over who killed John Kennedy was basically selfish," Mae said, "to find out if there had been a coup--was the United States going fascist? Would I be like Anne Frank's father, who told his family that things were okay and that people were basically good--while they were living their last days--instead of saying when it was coming down that some people are worse than others? And they never fought Nazism but just watched it all go by, and hid in the attic until their time came around to be taken away. With a family of five children, my husband and myself, we had an obligation to understand the world outside the home, in which they would someday live and become part of the larger community, part of the entire world political scene."


My take on Massachusetts today is that the overwhelming majority would not risk their social standing to stand up like this simple, Jewish housewife who had the heart of a lion did. I question today, if Massachusetts has those cool people who are tough and smart and open and caring of if we just have a bunch of selfish corporate robots and tiger moms....

If John F. Kennedy had friends like Samuel Adams, we would have caught his killers and we wouldn't have had the past 48 years the way they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLe9u9SffO0

Your life is short, it is precious, and more important is that of your children. Our generation needs to worry less about what our kid's SAT's are and what the MCAS Scores are for our yuppie town, instead we need to keep evil people from starting WWIII while we all have our heads in the sand.
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Boston ITer



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:
My take on Massachusetts today is that the overwhelming majority would not risk their social standing to stand up like this simple, Jewish housewife who had the heart of a lion did. I question today, if Massachusetts has those cool people who are tough and smart and open and caring of if we just have a bunch of selfish corporate robots and tiger moms....

If John F. Kennedy had friends like Samuel Adams, we would have caught his killers and we wouldn't have had the past 48 years the way they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLe9u9SffO0

Your life is short, it is precious, and more important is that of your children. Our generation needs to worry less about what our kid's SAT's are and what the MCAS Scores are for our yuppie town, instead we need to keep evil people from starting WWIII while we all have our heads in the sand.


John, sometimes I'm baffled by your posts, mixing political rhetoric with the suburbia culture of modern America.

For course people are corporate robots and soccer moms, that's been the story since the dawn of the post war era. The difference today, however, is that people think even more homogeneously than during the early 60s. Perhaps it's because today, if you don't make it (meaning grades/college/etc), the chances are that you won't get a job at all. The baby boomers never faced a society where there were shrinking white collar jobs in large quantity like today. Back then, anyone could be a clerk; today, HR depts force that person to have a BA degree.

And as for Adams, Hamilton, and Franklin ... come on, the East India Co tried to govern a colony, 3K miles away, with Clipper ships and mounted cannons as the state of the art tech. Of course local merchants, farmers, etc, would opt for self-rule. Today, all of them would have RFIDs in their licenses with security cameras all around and Natl Sec tapping their IPs/Cell Phones/etc, Patriot Act or not. If anything, if JFK were to happen again, the Oliver Stone Film crew (since this time they wouldn't wait a generation) would disappear into a mysterious snow drift in North Dakota, never to be seen again. (Almost like that Flight 93 in western PA, the plane which for the most part, looked like it was pre-incinerated before hitting the ground.)
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Markey



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Arlington Reply with quote

ToJohn,

I really disagree with you so much about how, according to you, "Twenty years ago, people were still concerned that if you moved to say Memphis, you'd be around unsophisticated people and if your company needed brain horsepower it would be hard to be successful. Today, that is less and less the case. "

Then why is Kendall Square in Cambridge becoming more, not less, of a powerhouse for global leaders in high tech brains? What, are you actually going to tell us that now, all of a sudden, the incredible, incomparable wealth of academic and research institutions in Massachusetts are to be compared to what you find in ANY southern city?

Your craving for warm weather has really taken over your thought process: " People who aren't rooted here realize pretty quickly that they can get a much better lifestyle and have to work a lot less to get it in other areas of the country (and in a much warmer climate). It is such a no-brainer that the people that actually decide to stay here are often lacking in common sense.
"

It's a no-brainer to you because, clearly, you don't mind leaving a state which remains a world, not just U.S. leader, in higher ed, science, tech and medical research, as well as a center for the arts with which NO southern region or city can compare.

Obviously, you don't value these above features as much as those who want to stay here do. All because of the weather and the cost of housing, I take it. (I love the four seasons and don't mind the cold winters and snow - I actually love them!)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Arlington Reply with quote

Markey wrote:
It's a no-brainer to you because, clearly, you don't mind leaving a state which remains a world, not just U.S. leader, in higher ed, science, tech and medical research, as well as a center for the arts with which NO southern region or city can compare.


This is the prior performance equals future performance type of reasoning. I see that from the rise of Digital Equipment Corp, early 60s to late 90s, Boston was exactly the type of region you'd described. Hundreds of thousands of hi-tech jobs were created like no other region in the USA, except for perhaps the Silicon Valley basin.

Today, whenever a company, whether it be biotech, IT, or robotics reaches a critical mass, a bunch of the work then gets either in-shored (see Texas Triangle, Research Tri Park/NC, etc) or offshored (Asia-Pacific). This has been going on for the past decade and isn't going away. Thus, instead of 100K+ jobs being created, over time, we see jobs of perhaps in the hundreds to 1K being generated in the region with a lot of it, being related to the non-tradeable services like heathcare, where everyone has to pay higher insurance premiums to sustain. A lot of that newer Kendall Sq build out, occurred during the 2000-2003 biotech/bioinformatics bubble and many know that the period of blockbuster drugs has leveled out.
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Markey



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Arlington Reply with quote

(I didn't write that quote. It was John.)

In response to your valid comments, I would have to say this: I knew Boston way back in the 1950's and 60's even, and we didn't have the high tech and related jobs at that time. (My father, being an MIT trained EE, moved our family to NY so he could get a good job!)

But the thing that John overlooks is the consistently outstanding intellectual and academic, as well as research and cultural arts environment in Boston, which has existed for so many decades now, and which does NOT exist in the wonderful southern regions he thinks are better for young families.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Arlington Reply with quote

Markey wrote:
(I didn't write that quote. It was John.)

In response to your valid comments, I would have to say this: I knew Boston way back in the 1950's and 60's even, and we didn't have the high tech and related jobs at that time. (My father, being an MIT trained EE, moved our family to NY so he could get a good job!)

But the thing that John overlooks is the consistently outstanding intellectual and academic, as well as research and cultural arts environment in Boston, which has existed for so many decades now, and which does NOT exist in the wonderful southern regions he thinks are better for young families.


My dad also worked in the engineering fields during the 60s/70s (& 80s) and for the most part, back then, there were design jobs in New England, even if the target plant/facility was to be made in the Midwest or the Southlands. This was the so-called Kevin White era. So even when the Oil Patch bust kicked in, during the early 80s, some petrochemical folks who're upside down on their mortgages, in the Dallas-Houston areas, found work locally and thus, that Oil based depression wasn't affecting tech workers nationally because of high worker magnet regions like eastern MA, California, or the mid-Atlantic.

On the flip side, post Nasdaq 5000, I haven't seen a similar phenomena for this generation in eastern MA. Instead of let's say Wang/Prime/DEC/Data Gen/Raytheon adding 1000s of jobs and attracting workers from all around the country, we have these boutique R&D operations which have a dozen to 100 workers and then, they expand by either putting offices elsewhere or offshoring. So yes, today, I get calls from friends/recruiters in Austin, Houston, and Dallas. The difference in career opportunities is something like 3 to 1. By making a simple move to let's say Houston, I can buy a house for $200K which at this point in time, I can do in cash w/o a mortgage. I'm keeping that option wide open because CoL here is higher than any air conditioning bill Wink in the Texas triangle.

But like you, I'm a New Englander so I keep my sights on NH, Vermont, etc, instead of the Sun Belt. Thus, I'd rather buy a cheaper home in the countryside, rent a studio (or room in someone else's place), and work in Boston, NYC, DC, etc, then to be trapped w/o the ability to move for better work when the opportunity arises.
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Markey



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<But like you, I'm a New Englander so I keep my sights on NH, Vermont, etc, instead of the Sun Belt. Thus, I'd rather buy a cheaper home in the countryside, rent a studio (or room in someone else's place), and work in Boston, NYC, DC, etc, then to be trapped w/o the ability to move for better work when the opportunity arises.
>>

(You'll pass out when I tell you when my father graduated from MIT: 1935 and 1936 ms and bsee. He retired in 1984.. all aereonautics and then space industry)

OK, here is a confession, admission, or whatever you want to call it: I would rather die than move to places where they have tent evangelicals and vote for Santorum. I am politically to the left and value a culture that actually understands that science literacy is what we need, not more creationism garbage and doubters of the 99%+ scientists who are concerned about the depletion of the ozone layer and global warming.

I cannot abide living in the south or southwest. In the sunbelt you are going to find good schools, yes, but these areas are small for the most part.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Markey wrote:
(You'll pass out when I tell you when my father graduated from MIT: 1935 and 1936 ms and bsee. He retired in 1984.. all aereonautics and then space industry)


Wow, before the war Shocked

Markey wrote:
OK, here is a confession, admission, or whatever you want to call it: I would rather die than move to places where they have tent evangelicals and vote for Santorum. I am politically to the left and value a culture that actually understands that science literacy is what we need, not more creationism garbage and doubters of the 99%+ scientists who are concerned about the depletion of the ozone layer and global warming.

I cannot abide living in the south or southwest. In the sunbelt you are going to find good schools, yes, but these areas are small for the most part.


It's not all about Bible thumpers or Lynyrd Skynyrd. A number of Mass residents have re-located to the Texas Triangle, w/o having to become a redneck to fit in.

It's just that our version of the countryside, like the Green Mts vs the rural Southwest, is very different and so we need to live closer to locales like Santa Fe, Austin, Atlanta, Memphis, or Houston whereas in New England, we can pretty much slide in & about anywhere.
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