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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:16 pm GMT Post subject: |
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MPR:
Thanks for answering the Tea Party question.
I understand your viewpoint in that you don't see many of them as being "on the level" because they weren't up in arms about the Bush spending but now have a big problem with Obama's spending.
I think what you're missing, most likely because of where you get your news, is that there was a fault line in the Republican Party with respect to the spending. Even Sean Hannity and Laura Ingram during the Bush years were calling themselves "Conservatives" versus "Republican" and were protesting government spending. They were Republicans because they felt that Democrats would spend MORE, as they have. Even John McCain in the Republican Convention said that Republicans had lost their core conservative values of smaller government. In a Presidential Debate when asked where Government could cut, McCain offered the Military, and Obama never identified anything. Having a former Navy guy saying that we ought to cut Military Spending was a big deal and I think liberals didn't get how out on a limb McCain went with that. McCain used to work with Ted Kennedy so he was someone who would try to bridge differences.
I think the Tea Party was more about the Republican Party Primaries. It was also about the mounting pressure for politicians to take special interest money and fuel the graft machine. The Tea Party basically said that if you actually say "No" to spending, you will actually have a base that will support you.
Honestly looking at Bush, he came in when the Tech and Internet Bubble were collapsing:
http://www.marketvolume.com/info/stock_market_crashes.asp
from above:
Quote: | The Crash of 2000
From 1992-2000, the markets and the economy experienced a period of record expansion. On September 1, 2000, the NASDAQ traded at 4234.33. From September 2000 to January 2, 2001, the NASDAQ dropped 45.9%. In October 2002, the NASDAQ dropped to as low as 1,108.49 - a 78.4% decline from its all-time high of 5,132.52, the level it had established in March 2000.
Causes of the Crash:
Corporate Corruption. Many companies fraudulently inflated their profits and used accounting loopholes to hide debt. Corporate officers enjoyed outrageous stock options that diluted company stock;
Overvalued Stocks. There were numerous examples of companies making significant operating losses with no hope of turning a profit for years to come, yet sporting a market capitalization of over a billion dollars;
Daytraders and Momentum Investors. The advent of the Internet enabled online trading –a new, quick, and inexpensive way to trade the markets. This revolution led to millions of new investors and traders entering the markets with little or no experience;
Conflict of Interest between Research Firm Analysts and Investment Bankers. It was common practice for the research arms of investment banks to issue favorable ratings on stocks for which their client companies sought to raise capital. In some cases, companies received highly favorable ratings, even though they were actually in serious financial trouble. |
This is a great article by Karl Rove, explaining the political and economic context when Bush took office; it isn't very different from what Axelrod says today.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/05/the_bush_economy.html
from above:
Quote: | The stock market began its decline in mid-January 2000, dropping from an all-time high of more than 11,700 in the Dow to below 9,800 in early March 2000, on its way to its first calendar year loss since 1994.
The dot.com bubble also burst in 2000. The Nasdaq, site of some of the largest IPOs in history, peaked on March 10th, 2000. And by December 2000, the time of our meeting in Austin, it had dropped by more than 50 percent.
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also from above:
Quote: | And he believes that economic growth is created largely on the economy's supply side. The best tax cuts create incentives for people to work and businesses to produce and companies to invest.
President Bush doesn't believe government creates wealth. He understands that's done by American workers, farmers and entrepreneurs.
His economic policies, then, are tied to a view of human beings that understands the role of incentives in shaping behavior. There are three important elements of these policies that I'd like to talk about today: the tax system, trade liberalization and budget discipline.
The president believes when the economy falters, tax cuts will lead to economic prosperity. This reflects a deep faith in individual citizens; in their energy and common sense and capacity to make wise decisions.
His view of free trade is grounded in the knowledge that American producers and workers can compete and win internationally as long as the rules are fair.
And an emphasis on a responsible federal budget reflects the president's belief that, while government should actively perform its core functions, it should not impede the efforts of individual citizens and enterprises to create jobs, wealth and economic opportunity.
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Obama's philosophy stems from the Income Gap:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/images/2007/03/31/0329bizsubtaxweb.gif
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?_r=1
The difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush thought that by giving money to the wealthy, they would invest in growing companies that created jobs. Obama seems to believe that the wealthy will do everything they can to preserve their wealth and reduce the workforce through burning through employees and offshoring production.
MPR, you seem to believe that it is these boom bust cycles that cause this major turbulence.
http://awesome.good.is/goodsheet/goodsheet006economy.html
http://www.impactlab.net/2008/10/23/it%e2%80%99s-the-economy-stupid/
I find it troubling that you may think that the Government should be able to operate outside the values of individual prudence because unlike an individual, the United States can't go bankrupt. I find this as an "Ugly American" attitude of the I'm a big gorilla and what are you gonna do about it?" attitude. I find it ok if the extent to quantitative easing is based on a reasonable degree of progressive income redistribution and not to the extent of causing major moral hazard which would just cause more turbulence and international tension. I don't think that the rest of the world would be happy if they thought that they would have to subsidize the lazy and greedy Americans.
I'm trying to figure out how in this political context, knowing what you know about these larger forces acting upon the Economy, what the right message and focus should be on?
I am seeing these large amplitude asset bubbles coming in both types of Administrations and throwing both approaches in a tailspin; I am buying a lot of your arguments MPR, I'm just trying to connect in my mind the current ideology and perspective with a remedy.... |
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Boston ITer
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 Posts: 269
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:20 pm GMT Post subject: |
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MPR, the reason why I'm highly critical of management consulting, as a profession, is that companies already have executives and managers in place.
When an executive decides to hire an MC firm to do a jointed venture between let's say his parent tire company and one of its distributors, what he's really doing is telling his CEO/CFO that if the venture is a bust, then it's not really his fault but that of ABC Strategy Consultants. Like some others, I see that as a 'rent' against the liability of upper managers where in effect, they buy an entire firm, as insurance for their true, lack of executive know-how or confidence in delivery. Now, there might be this sort of rationalization that it's better to have 'research analysts', who're not a part of the total headcount, but then given the fact that many of America's offices are white collar, isn't there already overhead for that kind of activity to begin with?
I concur that software, by itself, is an *intangible* but it's hard to not infer that software is attached to all the sensors, networks, production facilities, quality control/assurance, and everything else which is a part of the authentic economy so that's why you have engineers of all different backgrounds, whether they be mechanical, electrical, chemical, or biomedical engineers or research/production chemists/biologists with a lot of software know-how or experience. Thus, software in itself, has evolved into a type of subprofession, software engineering vis-a-vis IT.
Quote: | Your argument about scalping from the rest of the world may be correct, cynical though it is. Certainly it makes sense if you're as negative about the rest of the US economy as you are. For me its a bit like saying lets reintroduce privateering on the high seas. |
For a pure actuality p.o.v, trading is a 'rent' on the totality of global commerce and banking. And of course, the rationalization is that it adds liquidity, diversifies capital, etc, etc. The question then is that since it's removed from let's say the intrinsic day-to-day business operations, which BTW, management consulting and IB are fully entrenched in, isn't it less of a problem than one makes it out to be? What's a fraction of a penny, here and there, versus an MC or IB company causing a company to fail?
Realize, when George Soros allegedly crashed the British Pound, he simply took a position where he didn't buy into the Bank of England being able to prop up its currency in a pooling strategy by its other European counterparts in the EERM. From my p.o.v., he didn't crash anything, he just called on the Bank of England, saying that the Emperor had no clothes, the rest is history. All and all, it was time for the Pound to correct, and Soros simply scalped it on the way down. |
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mpr
Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 344
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:45 pm GMT Post subject: |
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john p wrote: |
I find it troubling that you may think that the Government should be able to operate outside the values of individual prudence because unlike an individual, the United States can't go bankrupt. I find this as an "Ugly American" attitude of the I'm a big gorilla and what are you gonna do about it?" attitude. |
John, I think you might have misunderstood what I mean here.
The US govt. cant go bankrupt just as a matter of logic. Crudely,
they can just print the money. Its not about being an ugly American.
The question is whether the common paradigm of a family balance sheet
works well for a country controlling its own fiat currency. I claim it doesn't.
As I've written before, this doesn't mean that money printing is a free
lunch and the end of the story. High inflation is very corrosive to an economy
so you want to avoid that.
It does mean that you have to think differently about the implications
of US govt. spending and debt. In particular you're trying to overlay
questions of values on it, whereas I think it first
needs to be treated as a purely technical matter. Just as when you're
designing a house you think in terms of the technical specifications
of the materials, not their moral properties (this being meaningless).
Once one understands (to the extent its possible) the technical issues,
then one can consider which choices lead to desirable social outcomes. |
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mpr
Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 344
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:57 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Boston ITer wrote: | MPR, the reason why I'm highly critical of management consulting, as a profession, is that companies already have executives and managers in place.
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I've heard this argument many times - of course - and I'm *not* a
management consultant. Moreover I haven't interacted with any in
my job and am unlikely to.
On the other hand, doesn't it make sense that for a big change or
reorganization a company would bring in expertise that they wouldn't
necessarily have in the day to day running of the company ?
Boston ITer wrote: |
I concur that software, by itself, is an *intangible* but it's hard to not infer that software is attached to all the sensors, networks, production facilities, quality control/assurance, and everything else which is a part of the authentic economy
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I think you're placing way too much emphasis on "tangibility" - i.e
that something is matter, as opposed to organization and information.
Its more and more the case that production is commoditized
(and hence possibly offshored). The real value is in organizing information
- design of products, design of processes etc.
Boston ITer wrote: |
Isn't it less of a problem than one makes it out to be? What's a fraction of a penny, here and there, versus an MC or IB company causing a company to fail?
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Well it could be thousand of dollars less in my IRA when I retire.
Also are you saying all MC's/IB's cause company's to fail ? We're
talking about the intrinsic merits of an occupation, not whether
there are some or even many incompetent people in it. |
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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:14 pm GMT Post subject: |
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MPR said:
Quote: | In particular you're trying to overlay
questions of values on it, whereas I think it first
needs to be treated as a purely technical matter. Just as when you're
designing a house you think in terms of the technical specifications
of the materials, not their moral properties (this being meaningless). |
I'm going to give you a nice tidbit for the effort of responding and being a good sport:
Louis Kahn
Quote: | A great building must begin with the unmeasurable, must go through measurable means when it is being designed and in the end must be unmeasurable.
Louis Kahn |
Louis Kahn is my hero in architecture.
a couple of other Louis Kahn quotes:
Quote: | To express is to drive.
And when you want to give something presence,
you have to consult nature.
And there is where Design comes in.
And if you think of Brick, for instance,
and you say to Brick,
"What do you want Brick?"
And Brick says to you
"I like an Arch."
And if you say to Brick
"Look, arches are expensive,
and I can use a concrete lentil over you.
What do you think of that?"
"Brick?"
Brick says:
"... I like an Arch" |
Quote: | All material in nature,
the mountains and the streams and the air and we,
are made of Light which has been spent,
and this crumpled mass called material casts a shadow,
and the shadow belongs to Light.
- Louis Kahn |
Quote: | Architecture is the reaching out for the truth. |
Technical Analysis versus Fundamental Analysis
http://www.investopedia.com/university/technical/techanalysis2.asp
Allegory of the Cave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
I look at building a society the same way I see building a building. You have the rational, fundamentals based on values, and you have the echos, the noise, the shadows of irrationality in the market.
I appreciate your approach of trying to arrest the problem first, but what steps or what message needs to be communicated to get us out of this fun house of mirrors so we can get a bit more rationality into the mix? |
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Boston ITer
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 Posts: 269
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:48 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Quote: | On the other hand, doesn't it make sense that for a big change or
reorganization a company would bring in expertise |
For one, I don't buy the expertise concept, since I'd my own dealings with MCs, both strategic and implementation wise. Typically speaking, every company internally has conflicts of interest. And yes, exec VPs like as much shielding as they can get. The problem is that by protective shields, it insulates the VPs from their responsibilities to the mothership. Realize, MCs are looking for billable hours, whether or not a company succeeds long term, is a bit of an after effect. Granted, they don't want a litany of failures (documented in the press et al) to ruin their reputation but if it happens after they leave, well, it's no longer their concern.
Quote: | The real value is in organizing information- design of products, design of processes etc. |
Yes, I know people who can do this. Realize, many of my colleagues weren't pure computer science graduates... many were mechanical, electrical engineers, applied biochemists, etc. Thus, many of us started in the design of products and processes. Then, as time went by, Americans were slowly transitioned into the data collection/handling and *IT side* of things. Then, as development facilities tended towards offshoring, more & more design (along with basic support) went there, and more of the *business process type* of engineering work stayed here.
Quote: | Well it could be thousand of dollars less in my IRA when I retire. |
If you believe that markets are fundamentally sound then at most, the scalper or HFTer, can make his earnings during the times you're not looking at your portfolio. Thus, its effect maybe that you see $11,000 today but in 10 years, $14,005, with the difference being that if possibly could have been $14,010. And then a week or two later, it's at $14,010 again. Thus, all those fractional pennies are scattered around the globe. The same thing happens when the US govt devalues the currency against let's say the Yen or the Pound for political/trade purposes or vice versa.
Quote: | Also are you saying all MC's/IB's cause company's to fail ? We're
talking about the intrinsic merits of an occupation, not whether
there are some or even many incompetent people in it. |
They don't have a vested interest in the company, itself. They have a need for billable hours or in the case of IB, investiture/divestiture potential in various IP lines, market penetration, or depts. Thus, they don't all have a propensity for failure, however, they don't have a dire need to succeed for the long haul (see 4-7 years {+plus} horizon) either. |
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mpr
Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 344
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:47 am GMT Post subject: |
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Boston ITer wrote: |
If you believe that markets are fundamentally sound then at most, the scalper or HFTer, can make his earnings during the times you're not looking at your portfolio. Thus, its effect maybe that you see $11,000 today but in 10 years, $14,005, with the difference being that if possibly could have been $14,010. And then a week or two later, it's at $14,010 again. Thus, all those fractional pennies are scattered around the globe. |
Why do you assume the effect is so small ? Keep in mind that with compounding even a fraction of a percent decline in investment returns
could make a noticeable difference over time.
Suppose you put money in your IRA every month. Suppose the HFTer's
(as a group) have algorithms for figuring our when your and other managers
are about to or have started buying/selling in the market. Could this
decrease returns by say 1/4% a year ? This seems quite plausible to me.
Over 30 years this decreases your returns by about 7%.
Over 10 years by about 2.5% or $300 in your example.
Of course these are just made up numbers.
But even if it could be shown that this is inconsequential - which seems
unlikely given the vast sums of money involved - the main point is that
its an activity with truly no economic value. (Since you aren't seriously
defending the liquidity argument which is usually used). |
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Boston ITer
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 Posts: 269
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:56 am GMT Post subject: |
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Quote: | But even if it could be shown that this is inconsequential - which seems unlikely given the vast sums of money involved - the main point is that its an activity with truly no economic value. |
I'm more looking at it, as another type of arbitrage situation. Technically, when you travel abroad and buy something cheaper in a 3rd world nation, as a tourist, you do something similar. The same goes for medical tourism to Costa Rica, Thailand, & India where a hip replacement operation is ~10% the cost stateside. The risks are there but the benefits are also tremendous.
For international currency traders, they do something analogous in which they see nations' with stable currency poolings and higher interest rates to be a place where they can arbitrage another currency, like the Yen, at a lower rate to scalp profits between pairs. Yes, you and I see this as non-productive but given the fact that nations engage in competitive currency devaluations, what's really wrong with this type of business? The end result is that suppliers and vendors pay a type of 'rent' but if you've ever traveled abroad, the 'rents' charged by ATM machines are a lot higher.
I think the reason why folks cry foul here is that the average person isn't able to fair well in a system where those with greater capital resources can diversify, at the drop of a hat, whereas the average middle class workerbee is somewhat directed towards the Intl based Wall St casino (see 401K/Mutual Fund corridor), so that others get the benefit of the quants, Soros, and other money changer players, then those who work in the real economy. Still, as a middle class workerbee, I don't need to partake in this roulette table, however, I'm not able to stop the interference in good corporate governance by MCs and IBs which can cost me both my job and the industry I work in. |
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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:15 pm GMT Post subject: |
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I think this discussion relates to mortgage rates because what people benchmark is their earning potential versus everyone else.
If the Market flattens for an extended period, which many here seem to think, individuals need to assess their job security first, and then if they too will either have a flat few years or do they see any salaryor investment growth. Is my moving walkway going faster or slower than the one everyone else is on.
On top of that, you've got the influences of government intervention and globalization and corporations mergers and acquisitions.
If we are in an "Asset Bubble / Bust Cycle" world, we have to then try to figure out what's next.
When we went into an asset bubble of stocks, that tied nicely to salary growth and with salary growth, it provided a ton of tax revenues (Clinton's Surplus). This past asset bubble of real estate has actually made a ton of people house poor so consumer consumption is down. The WSJ had a nice chart of the Babyboomer's spending changes over the past ten years. Today, they have a nice chart showing the components of Projected U.S. government spending. Nondefense and Defense are basically flat lined and the biggest gains are in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and other Mandatory Programs, and Net interest and disaster costs. The Net Interest and disaster costs appear to be almost the size of the entire Defense Budget.
I think politically, the Tea Party will be empowered in the Mid Term. My hope is that they aren't too misguided and actually target what needs to be looked at (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and other Mandatory Programs). Non Defense Spending isn't causing the problems but these Entitlements are taboo to most politicians. Beyond that, the States are in trouble due to the Pensions and Health Care costs. Apparantly, the Unions are trying to get legislation passed which will roll their Pensions into the Federal System so the Taxpayer backstops their unfunded Plans. It might be too aggressive a move given the political climate, which is why I am supporting the Tea Party's presence, because without it, the Unions would run over everyone. I'm waiting to see politicians dispositions in these issues. If the sanctuary for investors is long term debt, it will slow the economy down in the short term. |
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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:17 pm GMT Post subject: |
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The Net Interest and disaster costs appear to be almost the size of the entire Defense Budget in 2020. |
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balor123
Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:07 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Asia Is Outpacing U.S. on R&D Spending
US is increasingly rewarding short term professions like sales and marketing and punishing long term activities like R&D. Result is that R&D workers are underpaid due to the surplus of workers here. Costs are rising in Asia for those workers but far below US still. Some have argued that Asian workers are worth less than American workers except most American workers are actually immigrants from Asia. Anyway, schools like IIT are very competitive with top American schools and graduate many more students than we do. China publishes more research papers than America now.
It seems to me that America is canabilizing the success of 50 years worth of R&D investment and plowing it into finance (including housing, which is larger than the economy of China currently), management, and sales and marketing. We deserve what's coming to us.
Most of my peers will move back to Asia I think once China and India overtake the US in ~10 years (Pentagon's estimate). I'll probably tough it out. I'm guessing the trade deficit and public debt will force some hard choices, which will result in significant reductions in the compensation for a lot of professions here. R&D workers who stay will likely be ok since it is largely an export, though I'm guessing compensation won't rise much as we'll have to start competing on price with Asian countries. An alternative would be to move to another Western country like Israel which still have a thriving innovation based economy. |
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Boston ITer
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 Posts: 269
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:24 pm GMT Post subject: |
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Quote: | Anyway, schools like IIT are very competitive with top American schools and graduate many more students than we do. |
Well, even MIT places some ~40% of its graduates into management consulting related fields over tech.
http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation09.pdf
Thus, I'm not at all impressed with the results of our "top" technical school. |
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mpr
Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 344
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:42 am GMT Post subject: |
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john p wrote: |
I appreciate your approach of trying to arrest the problem first, but what steps or what message needs to be communicated to get us out of this fun house of mirrors so we can get a bit more rationality into the mix? |
If your question is, how do you communicate the right policy to the
average voter, given that complicated explanations about the nature
of fiat currency are not going to fly, then this is a good question
with no easy answer that I can see.
I have nothing better than what Bernanke, Krugman and the administration
are saying: we should stimulate now and reign in the deficit when the
economy recovers. The merit of this is that it does advocate what is
right from an economic point of view - government deficits are sustainable
and desirable as long as the economy is performing far from capacity
(for as long as that is the case). Once the economy recovers they crowd
out investment and contribute to inflation, so they then need to be cut.
The problem is that if you are using the family balance sheet paradigm
this looks very irresponsible - imagine saying to your family "we're
running up huge debt on our credit cards, but this will fix itself once
I get a higher paying job some time in the future".
BTW, the failure to realize this is the wrong paradigm seems very
wide spread. A few days ago I saw Kyle Bass on CNBC. He is a hedge
fund manager who made a lot of money betting against mortgage backed
securities at the height of the bubble. So not a financial ignoramus.
He predicted the US would have to "restructure" (i.e default on) its debt.
The funny thing was that he explained that last year the world's central
banks basically printed the combined deficit of the developed world, but
then asked what we were going to do next year. Well .... |
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Kaidran
Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Posts: 289
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:25 pm GMT Post subject: |
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I'm enjoying reading your back and forth. Our dept has just become infested with management consultants so I understand the sentiment.
I heard this podcast a few days back, thought it might be interesting. It is an interview with the guy who wrote "Black Swan". He seems like quite a character but he says at one point that the stimulus only works if you can see an immediate way out. If not as we appear to have here then you have to knuckle down and ride it out ride it out.
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=129276793&m=129279731 |
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mpr
Joined: 06 Jun 2009 Posts: 344
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:42 pm GMT Post subject: |
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I'm listening to this - fun. I've always found Nassim Taleb a bit full of himself.
So far he's actually explicitly used the family balance sheet analogy.
His attitude is always that you cant predict or control anything in
the economy with any level of confidence. So, logically, he predicts at the
end that money printing by the Fed will eventually cause runaway inflation.
There certainly is some danger of this, and the Fed could get boxed
into a corner - what happens if the banks start to lend out their
excess reserves triggering inflation, while at the same time there
is a spike in Treasury rates ? This is a perfectly plausible scenario.
its always a balancing act for the Fed, and if you're Taleb you
think they'll screw it up. However I find this attitude almost ludditelike:
You cant control anything so you just give up and let everything fall to
pieces. |
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