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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820
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 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:47 am GMT Post subject: |
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| I know the whole health care is a bit off topic, but after seeing how the babyboomers had to pay for the echo boom (their kids) college by using HELOC's (draining equity in their homes to pay for their kids college). My feeling is that they're going to have to drain their house values again when they face expensive health care costs. This will create more supply of homes and lower the price. It is kind of sad, but I have a feeling that if we don't get our act together that will be a sad reality. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:48 am GMT Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mark wrote: I don't understand. Would you prefer that those people (the underclass as you call them) were not allowed to vote? Or perhaps you are suggesting that they are not voting their interest? |
I'm simply stating this as a fact. We have a republic, not a democracy. But once we have everybody voting for a bailout for themselves at the expense of others, we are quickly turning into a democracy. Do you know what democracies evolve into? They evolve into some other things you'd rather we not try...oligarchy, anarchy, bloody revolutions, communism ('a socialism with a human face'). It is a slippery slope. This has to do with the moral compas of the nation. If everybody believed that they are responsible for their own actions, and that bailing out is not a job for the government, maybe, just maybe we would not be where we are today. However, once a majority believes that they can get SOMETHING for NOTHING, just because they are ENTITLED and DESERVE it for whatever reason, they nave nothing to lose by voting the country into the ground. This is what is happening to Europe. You can NOT stop this. The only way to do so would be to change the way our kids are educated. We the people can do this by pulling kids out of schools and by educating them ourselves, but the GOVERNMENT, because it is dependent on voters will try to perpetuate itself by keeping voters dependent on handouts, and will thus will NOT change on its own.
| Quote: | | Samz wrote: I suspect that you would be in favor of a system with no insurance, no rules, and no bailouts. That's a legitimate position, but I think it's a much harsher system -- more pain, more fear, less productivity. I imagine the situation like a circus trapeze act: if the acrobats don't have a net, they can't do the fancy moves, and the show kinda sucks. |
No, I think you are still misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that NO amount of hand-holding will solve the problems that the banks have. You can not regulate the laws of nature! I bet some people in the government would like to try ('global warming hoax'), but this doesn't change the reality - banks failed because the government created a situation which the banks are NOT able to handle correctly. They STILL can not handle a rare random event which their models can not predict or quantify the loss when such an event does happen.
Safety net is not the problem. Abusing the safety net and regulations IS a problem. Politically motivated legislation is a problem. Making people pay for fake science ('aka global warming') is a problem.
| Quote: | | samz wrote: The problem isn't that people are unable to make decisions in their own self interest (although I think that is clearly evident). The problem is that individual self interests often come in conflict with collective interests. |
Its the other way around! Not if collective interests INFRINGE on individual interests. The founders would be rolling in their graves... |
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GenXer aka Guest, G
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:18 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Guest above = GenXer...doesn't always remember the right name for some reason... |
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john p
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820
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admin
Site Admin
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Posts: 1826
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samz
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Medford, MA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:08 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
| Quote: | | Samz wrote: I suspect that you would be in favor of a system with no insurance, no rules, and no bailouts. That's a legitimate position, but I think it's a much harsher system -- more pain, more fear, less productivity. I imagine the situation like a circus trapeze act: if the acrobats don't have a net, they can't do the fancy moves, and the show kinda sucks. |
No, I think you are still misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that NO amount of hand-holding will solve the problems that the banks have. You can not regulate the laws of nature! I bet some people in the government would like to try ('global warming hoax'), but this doesn't change the reality - banks failed because the government created a situation which the banks are NOT able to handle correctly. They STILL can not handle a rare random event which their models can not predict or quantify the loss when such an event does happen.
Safety net is not the problem. Abusing the safety net and regulations IS a problem. Politically motivated legislation is a problem. Making people pay for fake science ('aka global warming') is a problem.
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So, again, I suppose I could ask: is the statement "global warming is a hoax" axiomatic or empirical? Axiomatic here would mean "it is impossible for global warming to exist and be caused by human activity, regardless of what observations or measurements are made". Empirical would mean "So far, I am unconvinced by the evidence, but it is possible, at least in principle, for new results to change my conclusion." My concern is that if many things are decided axiomatically, then there's no systematic way to determine what is true and what isn't.
| Anonymous wrote: |
| Quote: | | samz wrote: The problem isn't that people are unable to make decisions in their own self interest (although I think that is clearly evident). The problem is that individual self interests often come in conflict with collective interests. |
Its the other way around! Not if collective interests INFRINGE on individual interests. The founders would be rolling in their graves... |
I guess my point is that individual interests and collective interests are very closely interdependent in modern society -- much more so than in 1770.
The classic example is pollution -- I don't think the Founders had any idea that it was possible to poison our air and water in such a large-scale way. Does that mean we are not allowed to address that problem? Is it your individual right to dump toxic chemicals in a river, or even in your back yard?
The banking situation is similar. Personally, I would love to see banks crash and burn. The problem is that all my savings would go with them. Hypothetically, let's say there is no bailout, no FDIC, no government regulation or guarantees of any kind. We could stand to lose all of our accumulate wealth if we let banks fail. It sucks, but that's the dilemma. |
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john p
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