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balor123 · Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204

My wife wants to teach at a liberal arts college, though, so it's a tough move. I'm actually from San Antonio, which is a far better deal than Austin, but doesn't have tech jobs (and I wouldn't want to live there). I spent 2 years outside Dallas and a summer in Austin. I've also visited El Paso and Houston so I'm fairly familiar with Texas cities. My inlaws want us to move to Philly but there's virtually no tech jobs there that are interesting (just Lockheed and a handful of cable related companies).

Startups don't generally pay developers well and those that do I wouldn't want to join (not a good use of cash). I would expect to get paid enough to get by. The other problem with startups is they reserve so little equity for people they hire that the return isn't worth the risk and sacrifice. Work is more interesting though. My group was previously an MIT startup that was acquired and people here tell me they made enough money to renovate their houses or send 1 kid to college, so about $200k. Startups require several years of salary sacrifices and a cashout isn't a guarantee so the return doesn't seem to be that good, though I suppose there are more opportunities to move up.

Like I said, I think it depends what you buy in Austin whether the taxes are higher. But in your price range I think you are right, except that you spend ~1/2 the price on the house to begin with (for San Antonio it would be ~1/4 - ~1/3). But Texas cities are better suited to the middle class than Boston is. I only compared the top school district. You can get into a mediocre school district for much cheaper ther than you can here I think. A house still costs you $500k in Natick but in Austin you can get down to $200k so I think the difference in house prices are really like 1/3 - 1/2, depending on what segment of the market you are in.

My observation is that you are roughly right about the pay down there, though I consider myself to be underpaid right now so I expect I could make the same. I would have put it at 10% - 20% though.

Idaho would be nice but I think for anyone in tech the only places to be are: CA, Oregon, Seattle, Austin, NC, NY/NJ, and Boston. Not all places are good for all fields and for tech work in general I'd say that it is down to CA, Austin, and NC. You might through DC into the mix but only for government jobs. Boise has some stuff but I don't think it has the momentum of other cities. I would say that as a whole the Northeast is a tougher market than other parts, especially NY/NJ. Boston's future success depends on how many startups primarily MIT can put out as most of the people starting companies now will retire in 5-10 years and whether the city will grow to accommodate those business.

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balor123 · Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204

Yeah I guess I was thinking of jobs available to specialists and top notch schools, not the hordes of people graduating from state schools. I don't think Boston has a remote shot of producing the quantity of jobs that companies like DEC used to produce. I think to be competitive here you better be from a top10 school with a graduate degree. There are some jobs for people who don't have those qualifications but they really don't pay well.

I meet those conditions and I feel like I'm part of the lower class here so I can't imagine how someone making 1/2 - 2/3 what I make can feel like they're successful here. I think that may just be my prudence though - that is, my refusal to buy at more than 3-3.5x income and to depend on laddering up to get somewhere decent. I have no doubt that those people would do FAR better in a place like Texas than here. I mean I've met people who are far more interesting (but maybe not top10) than people in Texas living in fabulous houses who've been relegated to living in DORCHESTER! I also know top10 people who are forced to cram a family of 4 into a 2 bedroom apartment in Brookline because that's all they can afford while still having access to good schools (something every American, regardless of income, should have), while still living within their means.

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I suppose what this does is create a unique pickle... the elitists in Boston's tech are a small club and they don't want additional competition so they maintain an entry level skeletal crew of recent MIT grads, who report to them, but resist accepting national level experienced transfers from outside of the clique. Anyone who can threaten 'to bust the game' is basically an outsider.

Unfortunately, in the long run, this really limits the success of the cohort because it becomes one of these stale white collar rust-like industries (see companies like Shaw-{Stone & Webster/Badger} or Aspen Tech) than an up and coming breeder for authentic talent. The real talent will then always try for medical school, patent law, and hedge fund quant/trading and then create an entire generation of those who resist tech, as a career, thus increasing the critical mass of development stage enterprises towards east Asia.

balor123 · Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204

I think you're right about the trend to finance. I saw a figure that 2/3 of engineers went into something besides engineering in 2005. I think since then it's gotten worse. I know plenty of people who went finance (the starting pay is at least 30% higher, bonuses 5-10x as much). Some go medicine but not many I think. A good number do go to law school because they could spend 5-7 years getting a Phd to earn $100k or 3 years to earn $250k. A good portion of the remainder go to startups or do their own startups (usually not making much in the process). I wouldn't say the ones who go into tech are mediocre but maybe not American (remember, they can and usually plan on going home where they'll make what doctors make in their country). Those who go tech usually do so because they aren't driven by money. I was one of those because I thought I only needed enough money and in 2002 I thought I could get it. Then I moved to Boston. Also, I think in 2002 tech was still a relatively interesting career.

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balor123 · Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204

I should that for the graduating class of 2002 tech was still interesting (since you started your job hunt before the crash).

They are talking about increasing H1-B visas now as a way of solving America's problems because those people are innovative and will bring jobs for everyone else. Protectionism certainly doesn't solve the problem but neither will this. What this policy does is further discourage Americans from becoming innovators and increase our dependence on foreign talent. In a world where the conditions in their home countries and economies/opportunities are elsehwere, that's a bad strategy. At some point those people would rather stay home, those who came will start emmigrating, and we'll be left without the innovators that we needed because they went into law, finance, and medicine.

What scares me about doing a startup is that on the off chance that it's successful, at best I can hope for a cashout that's equivalent to maybe 1 year's worth of income for one of those alternative careers but with much greater risk. I could found the startup but then the odds are even lower and it's becoming increasingly difficult to go that route while the government insists on propping up the cost of living. The cost of living has dropped in every other recession which is why there has been such great recoveries as people could afford to take the risks necessary to pull us out.

Anyway, these days the engineers that I meet tell me they entered the field for the background. Then they'll get an MBA or do something else afterwards. That includes foreigners too. In fact, only in 2007 did the downtrend in all the sciences finally stop that started in 2001. I think it's like outsourcing. No one realizes how much these fields are hurting until it's too late (a recession hits and the unemployment rate skyrockets up to 17% because all the stable jobs were outsourced and everyone else was working in fluff jobs).

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balor123 · Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Posts: 1204

Looking back at this, I realized that there are actually two zipcodes in Eanes (4th school district in all of TX) and you can get houses in the $250k range. You just won't be living with as wealthy as the other houses so the affordability of good schools districts looks even better now, closer to 1/3 rather than 1/2 of Boston.