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Context is Changing
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Context is Changing Reply with quote

Long time no talk...

I think what new buyers are going to face is a wider range of cost of capital.

I remember back in what, 08 and 09 a new trend which was a separation of the mortgage rates between a "Jumbo" rate and one under whatever it was... $417k or something... Prior to that, Jumbo's and smaller loans tracked about the same.

When the wife and I finally got to refinance from 6.5% to 4.875%, there were advertisements for rates as low as 4.5% and people looking to refinance at 15 years were getting rates in the 3’s. Basically, the trend was that you needed a certain amount of equity in the home to qualify for the better rate.

Additionally, I also saw in 2010 a wider spread in the cost of capital related to the length of the term. People going for 20 or 15 year terms got a much better deal (more than prior times) than the 30 years.

hmmm.... that kind of means that in the future you might see a wider range in what mortgage rates are depending on your length of term, the size of your down payment, etc.

I say this because sometimes people's analysis assumes that certain things are constants and when they begin to deform and behave in a different manner we need to recognize it and adjust.

So, many might think, hey, I'm going to save a ton of money, put 20% plus down and get into a 15 year note. Sound great?

This was my strategy back in 1998/1999. I looked at house prices as being stagnant since the early 1990's and noticed that the mortgage payment between a 30 and 25 year note wasn't that much, so instead of buying a place, I decided to get my MBA, bring up my salary and then later in two years get into a 25 year note with my new higher salary. Well, Fate had other plans. I graduated in June 2000 and the big $100k MBA jobs vanished with about 40% of the Market Value of Equities. I ended up getting laid off and the cherry on top was my new education loan for my MBA. So here I was two years later after exhaustive effort in a weaker position to buy a house. After a couple years of getting my footing in a new job, I was a bit shy to take on a big investment and shortly thereafter, I got behind this enormous price inflation wave in home prices. I fell into this decade trap because I thought certain things would remain constant.

What distorted my judgment was the duration of time it took for things to react. My research would tell me that certain things should be happening but for whatever reason weren't. You would have to second guess your assumptions and endure criticism and then eventually things would come around to reality; but you'd have a whole new set of circumstances to deal with.

I noticed many saying to hell with this, we're in a generation where buying just isn't worth it, and the rent versus buy analysis says "rent". My feeling is that is just a snapshot, and would it really make sense to rent for 30 years and would it really be possible to actually save enough to buy a place cash outright? Wouldn't the house prices grow if wages grew? If we have stagflation, how much will people really be able to save? To many it is just a matter of picking your prison cell in our indentured servitude. Others, don't believe in a rational market theory and feel like if they work hard and play by the rules they are just suckers because the vast majority act irresponsibly and they will vote someone in that gives them a bailout or creates inflationary policy which will dilute their savings. If debtors far outweigh creditors, we will elect politicians who will bail out debtors. Because the United States is not alone in this regard, I do see some form of great settlement between debtors and creditors. I think this will come to reality when China, like Japan realized that they have soaked us enough and they reach a point of diminishing returns when we are not a healthy host for their market.

Republicans complain that the bottom 50% of wage earners pay 2% of the cost of government. Democrats will say that not only does the top 50% of wage earners do only 2% of the actual real work in our society, but also that the bottom 50% of wage earners aren't paid enough. In this regard, when the Price to Earnings ratio of a house are too high, is that because house prices are too high or that workers in that area aren't paid enough?

I say this because you really have to think about reality and what position people are really in. A friend of mine who is in their early 50's said that they graduated college when it costs $4k per year and that his starting salary was $28k per year. That is 7 times the cost of a college tuition. Do you see entry level jobs paying well over $100k today? 80 percent of recent college graduates are living at home with Mom and Dad. This number was like 40 percent back in 2006. Today, they can't even afford to rent. This is a pent up situation. How on God's earth will these kids be able to afford a 20% down payment? The answer is that they won't, and either this generation gets totally screwed or we go through a political process that creates a wage inflationary dynamic, which would make a lot of Old Man Potter's (creditors) angry. These creditors, like, China will have to step back and understand that they have reached a point of diminishing returns and Americans won't want to live like milk fed veal indentured servants for very long, especially if a critical mass are working hard and trying to play by the rules.

Now, to many people's frustration, I raised local politics as a major issue in selecting a town. In some towns people are apathetic and the only ones that really show up to vote are those that have a special interest like they want a job, or special benefit etc. Massachusetts voters as a whole are pretty apathetic and don't hold their government accountable because they are blindly loyal. For example, the new head of the MBTA is in his mid 30's and came from the commuter rail company. Since taking the reins, he has increased bonuses to his former company when the trains are running at their worst performance level ever. What is worse is that there are rules that require him to get penalty payments for the taxpayers. So basically instead of getting money for the taxpayers, he is giving money to his old friends. What the MBTA is asking for now is, get this, to actually gain control of the commuter rail. I mean we in Massachusetts are supposed to be highly educated.

What I really see is that the bubbas in places like Texas and Tennessee living a much, much better quality of life. I see professionals in Boston paying obscene amounts to live in one floor in a triple decker in Somerville or Cambridge when the guy who sold it to them are saying, thank you very much and living further out beyond 495. I know of people who basically don't need a salary because of the inflated rental income they get. Although most in Massachusetts are hard workers and are educated, they also have this "Kick Me" sign on them where they allow the public sector to basically kick the tar out of them.

Basically, if you are in an area that is sinking due to too much debt or a bad cost of living situation, property values will drop. Then, if you are upside down or don't have enough equity, you can't refinance. The people from Texas that saw more job growth and less price drops, and the price to earnings ratio was much less. Basically, these people are in a better situation to refinance, shorten their terms and get even better rates, etc.

Today, the name of the game is to go to a really inexpensive college and live in an area where a 20% down payment and a price to earnings ratio is more favorable. In the end, you either pay a ton of rent or interest, or you earn revenue and get paid interest. Either your plan makes you cash flow positive or negative. Living in Massachusetts is like trying to "Shoot the Moon" in the game Hearts. You have to think you are a "Superstar" that can make so much money that your $100k job will turn into a $500k job where you can afford that $850k beat up Cape in Weston. The dumb hick from Texas gets that same cape for $85k and that is 2.5 times his salary working as an assistant manager at JC Penney. The money the yuppie who overpaid in Weston spends on counseling, the JC Penney guy spends on fishing equipment.

When I talk to people that want to overpay in a place like Brookline or Newton, I often ask if they really think they are superstars and are going to get that kind of money. If that is a risk, they will just be highly paid indentured servants that will have to work their butts off for thirty years and in the end not have that much better a quality of life than someone who had a bit more common sense. What you will see in cultures like Newton will be yuppies who are delusional about their own personal value because going through a rational process and overpaying to that degree for that little return filters out a lot of people with common sense and what does pass the filter are delusional people with big egos who have a kick me sign and overpay for one of the most expensive High Schools ever built in the US.

In the end, it should be about moving to a place where you get cash flow and the price to earnings ratio is decent, where you can save to reduce your down payment and shorten your term to give you some daylight to save and reduce interest payments. Those stuck renting for very long time because the rent to buy ratio was better to rent while they hoped to become a superstar, and then buy in an expensive town still hoping to be a superstar just puts you into a longer term note with higher mortgage rates and you're again, stuck in a high stress situation where you're barely grazing your nuts over the hurdles.

In prior years, the length of the term didn't matter as much with respect to the cost of capital, and the percentage of equity didn't matter as much , or the jumbo amount. Today, this range is expanding so a bad decision can affect a decade versus a year or two.

I guess I stopped posting for so long because it was like trying to have a conversation about losing weight with those that were eating at Kentucky Fried Chicken. Overpaying for a house in Wellesley so that you can try to be in the "In" club is essentially like eating 10 Big Mac's and it almost guarantees that you'll never get into the "In" Club. If you realize that you're not going to be a superstar and you're stuck trying to shoot the moon, you'll be stuck having to find people who buy your brand of bullshit and have to live your life faking being awesome and be more obnoxious and delusional than the prior generation of yuppies to force everyone else to believe your worth your premium. If you just don't want to live like that go for it. In fact, there were a few guys I almost wanted to see make that mistake because they were obnoxious and they deserved to learn the hard way.

For the rest of you the separation between jumbos and length of term and percentage of equity has expanded so the risks are greater.

I bought in 06, but if you take my principal payoff it isn't far off from what I'd pay today given the amount I would have been able to save over the past five years. I refinanced at a shorter term so I was able to hedge my best to some degree in the play I made in 06. On top of that, I didn't have to follow every real estate piece of data and I could focus on my job (which isn't true) Smile Anyway, I knew that I had a Plan B in case the shit hit the fan and we weathered a layoff without too much stress because we factored it in our plan.

My regret wasn't buying or not buying, it was about whether or not I should have planted my seeds in better soil. I have friends in Face book who live in other areas and one of my buddies who lives in Boulder Colorado has a life than many would love to have (and he doesn't make that much money). The Massachusetts mentality is this tractor beam that tries to pull you in and believe that you should overpay for office space, housing, taxes, etc. Over a generation or two, you get delusional people with a kick me sign on their backs and overly aggressive people who are upside down and have to compensate by being Mass holes. I got caught up with the whole superstar thing with my MBA aspirations, but never fell so far as to overpay for a crappy cape in Wellesley.

If it weren't for Proposition 2 1/2, we would be worse than New Jersey. If New Jersey's Republican Governor ran, he would be our next President. They are begging him to run. Massachusetts Debt is much deeper than New Jersey's and basically this younger generation of Massachusetts College kids who paid $45k per year and who are living with Mom and Dad in the basement of their run down raised ranch will have to pay for all that Debt for all the decades of patronage and graft and promises to government unions. So if I was young, I wouldn't want to be the idiot who was willing to pick up the tab for that irresponsible and delusional "Me Generation" and I would look for a better place to plant my seeds.

Now California is even more delusional; people were buying homes 7 times their salary. These people really believed that they were going to become superstars and slingshot growth into their mortgages. What is going on now is irresponsible and delusional states looking for hand outs and bail outs. New Jersey could have either tried to elect an Ed Rendell type or big government, bring home the bacon, guy or an austerity guy like Christie. The Nation is coming out of this delusional sleep which fueled the Bubble. The I’m going to be a superstar and be rich was the yeast which helped excite the Bubble, so even though Massachusetts is still trying to get you to buy into their superstar status because they are overpriced, think about how population is leaving Massachusetts and we are now losing a Seat in Congress. Think about the Debt you’re going to have to pick up from prior generations and you should really be exploring other areas of the Nation. I was too much of a local to think outside the box in this regard and this is my big regret. I live in a State which bails out irresponsibility instead of rewarding responsibility. I’m trapped in a delusional State that is dependent on Bailouts and I’m stuck with people around me that I can’t even have a conversation with because they aren’t ready to admit that we have a problem. It is a big waste of time and effort and you will see that the people with clarity of mind will have the best future. Thankfully, I can sell and get out, but I'm a bit old to uproot and build a new network. Oh to know then what I know now...

Bottom line is, Massachusetts with Obama as President gets Bailouts, if he loses, Massachusetts Taxes will go way up to cover those Bailouts surcharges and to cover the mounting Debt and Pension Obligations. That is a major game changer in the context of buying a home in Massachusetts.
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balor123



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 1204

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

People on the coasts frequently criticize states like Texas for growing too quickly but they should be thanking them. Imagine if Texas had policies like CA and MA. Then those people - 25 million of them - would still be in places like CA, MA, NY, and NJ. Living standards for those people here would plummet, leading to a even heavier burdens on entitlements, overtaxing of infrastructure, and social problems that come with a large underclass. Other states might accept them but unlike TX they can't provide jobs for them, NM and AZ being good examples. TX is the only state where I've seen politicians talk about remaining competitive with China and in many ways is actually superior to it still. And with a GDP greater than India and a growth rate comparable to emerging markets, about the biggest risk factor to the state is either that they can't find water to keep up with the growth or the federal burden just becomes too much to bear (bailouts to states like MA force a rise in taxes for residents in all states).

The reason that I'm mentioning this is that a big factor in the decision of where to live shouldn't be where the jobs are now but where will they be in the future so that you have the mobility necessary to maintain income growth. And if you're concerned about home prices (one of the benefits of living there is that you can afford not to be) then you should be looking to settle down somewhere that demand is increasing. We've seen the graphs showing that the coasts are losing people and for the most part they're moving to AZ, NM, and TX. With the first two out of the picture, where do you think the next few points will be on Go Westward Young Population Centroid?

TX is not alone either. OR and NC are also growing very rapidly but unlike TX they don't have functional governments. In what other state can politicians pull off the kind of budget cuts that TX enacted this year? At least, that's until the demographics of TX change.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:45 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Context is Changing Reply with quote

john p wrote:
I’m trapped in a delusional State that is dependent on Bailouts and I’m stuck with people around me that I can’t even have a conversation with because they aren’t ready to admit that we have a problem. It is a big waste of time and effort and you will see that the people with clarity of mind will have the best future. Thankfully, I can sell and get out, but I'm a bit old to uproot and build a new network. Oh to know then what I know now...


Hello John, the last we'd had this discussion, houses in northern VT were in the $300-$400K category but now, I'm seeing numerous deals for $250K or less. I'm clearly seeing an ongoing deflationary pattern in my favorite region. Now, I can officially hold out for a bottom, as my savings targets are growing, while my future locale is getting cheaper on the whole.

I think the delusion is mostly MA based, as even southern CT, like Greenwich CT, home of the hedge funds, have experienced a major haircut from 2005. And that's an area where future Wall St superstars will emerge & pick up sullen properties. What will the MA supermen do, besides seeing their defense work be shipped to VA or TX in the years ahead?

I see the path like this... the Interstate 90 effect will grow. Erie PA, Buffalo NY, Rochester NY, Syracuse NY, Utica NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, & finally Worcester, have not had Manhattan-like growth in their high end job markets. Now, what's the last town on i-90 before the ocean? Yes, it's good olde Boston.
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas is just leading the way in the race to the bottom.

Only three more days until they all get raptured anyway.
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
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Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL. Looking at Utica and Springfield to deduce the future for Boston makes tons of sense... Rolling Eyes
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may disagree with everything John has ever written, but "barely grazing your nuts over the hurdles" is a great turn of phrase.

Anyway, I'm sorry that Massachusetts peed in your collective cornflakes.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renting in Mass wrote:
LOL. Looking at Utica and Springfield to deduce the future for Boston makes tons of sense... Rolling Eyes


Yes, up until the 60s/70s, the entire stretch of cities along i-90 had real industries and jobs. Then, as the rust belt grew, they all went downhill. The saying back in the 60s in Rochester goes, "a job at Eastman Kodak is a job for life" (BTW, I used to hear similar adages about working for John Hancock Insurance when I was a kid). Looking on the outside, Buffalo is still a far *nicer* place than either Detroit or Gary Indiana, the heartland of the big manufacturing bust, but it's clear that its future is bleak outside of govt, colleges/hospitals, and tourism.

Boston was more or less, at the time, experiencing the electronics/tech boom, launched by Digital Equipment Corp, Teradyne, Wang, etc. Then, starting in the 2000s, the same pattern started around here. Companies started leaving (GenX can provide details here) but luckily enough 300+% defense spending kept the region going for much of the past decade. Now, with Ted Kennedy gone, that federal pipeline will be re-directed to other regions, since Raytheon & friends have facilities nationwide, and can get the job done cheaper by in-shoring to TX & VA.

Conversely, New York City and metro area had been decimating its manufacturing centers, since the 70s/80s, however, what's replaced it was high finance (see GE Capital, Hedge Funds, etc). So in effect, media & finance is NY's bread and butter and will continue to be so much like London for the greater European trading houses. So when John talks about superstars and their big bonuses (a/o income), he's really referencing New York City professionals, not the ones in greater Boston.
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
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Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make it sound like defense is a huge part of Boston's economy. It isn't.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renting in Mass wrote:
You make it sound like defense is a huge part of Boston's economy. It isn't.


Don't be too certain ...

http://articles.boston.com/2010-12-07/business/29321500_1_defense-contracts-defense-spending-economic-activity

I hope you're not one of those who believes that Fidelity or Gillette will bring back all those jobs they'd eliminated. The 90s are over; I'm not holding my breathe for a new renaissance.
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good article. Two things:

1. We're talking about Boston and the study is for all of Mass. I'm still not convinced that defense is a large percentage of the Boston economy.

2. The study concludes the defense sector is well positioned to capture a significant share of spending as the Pentagon increases its focus on developing new technologies, a Massachusetts specialty. That would seem to counter your argument that Boston is about to experience a massive drop in defense spending.
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Beaumontv
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The important point is the bifurcation in the market caused by teh conforming limits and the GSE's. For homes under $417k, mortgages are pretty normal, downpayments still can be around 10%.

But in Boston, many markets consist of $1M homes. For those, the down payment will be $200-$350k and there are almost no private mortgage companies writing loans.

either wages soar giving everyone a ton of extra cash to pay for a home, more credit is poured into the real estate market, or the homes go unsold until the price gets down into conforming levels (sub 417k).

More credit is not going to happen. So to avoid declining prices the question is where all of this new cash will come pouring in from. Sure, it could be biotech or something out of MIT. Maybe. Everything seems to suggest that the jobs are heading out right now though.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renting in Mass wrote:
1. We're talking about Boston and the study is for all of Mass.


Greater metro includes the 495 belt and when you're out of that zone, you're pretty much in the countryside & away from most industries. IMO, ~65% of the state are greater Bostonians; no offense to the Springfield/Northampton crowd but Boston is the work/urban nexus of the state. As for the effect of a sector, with a tripling in monies, it has a significant multiplier effect on suppliers & services, esp when other sectors like Mutual Funds (Fidelity, Putnam), consumer products (Gillette, Reebox) were laying off in droves for much of the last decade.

Renting in Mass wrote:
2. The study concludes the defense sector is well positioned to capture a significant share of spending as the Pentagon increases its focus on developing new technologies, a Massachusetts specialty. That would seem to counter your argument that Boston is about to experience a massive drop in defense spending.


Yes, this article is positive leaning because of our MITREs, etc. What they don't realize is that for decades, Kennedy has been pitching this note to DC for the state. Scott Brown is no Ted Kennedy; he's a freshman in DC. In more recent times, however, projects have been quietly leaving the state but unless you know folks working in the sector, it won't be advertised. If a project is asked to cut 15% of overhead, w/o a drop off in delivery, the easiest way to do that today is to build out in Dallas. Well, at what point does that model stop, when most companies have facilities around the country?

Beaumontv wrote:
So to avoid declining prices the question is where all of this new cash will come pouring in from. Sure, it could be biotech or something out of MIT. Maybe. Everything seems to suggest that the jobs are heading out right now though.


IMO, the blow off top for biotech was circa 2004. This was the big build out in Kendall Sq where all the big players: Millennium, Broad I, Novartis, Genzyme, etc, posted the modernized facilities all over the place. Since then, output in products have dropped off & now, even this industry is getting into the offshoring business.

I think the next generation of MIT startups, like the robotics/DoE/DoD development stage enterprises, will have tiny crews of recent grads/postdocs a/o specialists in the region but when they reach critical mass, they'll also move to cheaper locations. VCs now look for an offshoring strategy when they finance new companies. This means that there won't be a massive Digital Equipment Corp for the 2020s in MA.
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GenXer



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decline is here, hard to say how long it would take to see its effects. Without big cuts we wont' be able to sustain this party. I'd say in 5-10 years when boomers start retiring from state jobs...

As far as workers, state workers dominate of course, but in the private sector, defense is a huge player. Only 100k jobs, but most are relatively high paying and most of all, long term, up until now. Still lots of players here in MA hiring what's left after the big Raytheon layoffs, but that won't last for long.

Hey, admin, why not open a linkedin group? That would be great if you can do it.
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GDMA
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:24 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The spouse and I bought in Sudbury last year. The townhouse cost 3X what my friend and his wife bought in NC after they relocated. Our two families have similar incomes and age.

I'm not totally unhappy about paying more (to an extent!) because the standard of living is higher here. I enjoy the low density and nice facilities of the town and surrounding area. I enjoy the 4 seasons, the low occurrences of natural disasters. I wouldn't say we enjoy a 3X increase in living standard compared to the pal in NC...maybe 1.8X or 2X better, which is why I think there's growth to be had there and obviously housing here is still too expensive, but it's not disastrously more.

Do I want to move? Of course. I'm a logical person, and believe a 2X increase in cost should equate to a 2X increase in value, but I'm not seeing it here. However, there are family ties that keep us here (what can I say, I'm sentimental), and for jobs - the spouse still has a job, though his company apparently just relocated a group of people to CA. CA is always an option in this company, but heck, that's a much worse state. Why would anyone want to go to CA with high state income tax, high state sales tax, water problems, drought, even higher real estate costs compared to income....

Anyway, I'm just looking around at the whole of USofA, and MA is not as bad as some other places, especially for the better trained employees. It's not the best, but it is imo, still above average. And for the hubby and I, it is the only option right now. (ARGH don't think I don't want to leave. I think I would like NC lol. Not too hot, not too cold)

I glanced through my town's budget. (Wonder how many really read these 350 page documents, geeze. ) You can't really pinpoint the reason for high taxes. Almost everything appear to be spent responsibly. Maybe some towns, maybe Boston, maybe many cities in CA or whatever have insanely high retirement and benefits and pay for state employees, but over here, if the budget is true, there are not that many highly paid people. What there is a propensity to promote too many to "director" of this or that even when the job is a mindless job that doesn't seem to have many responsibilities, and then because of that title, pay 90K. But that hardly seems as irresponsible as many think...As a tax net contributer, I (and hubby) obviously would like these to go our way more. But the ~1.6% property tax does not appear to have been squandered. Maybe the 6% state tax was, I dunno.

OT about CA: Family just tried to offer 1.05M for a house listed for 1.09M. Lost to a 1.1M cash offer. This is a standard 2300sf ranch near SV, built in 1975 I think. Who the heck are these crazy californians!
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 12:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDMA wrote:
Anyway, I'm just looking around at the whole of USofA, and MA is not as bad as some other places, especially for the better trained employees. It's not the best, but it is imo, still above average.


I think many of us are on this forum because we have family and ties in the region.

My question, however, is what are these skills, which we have but no one else does in the country? Is it a basic undergrad in engineering w/ a few years at a particular company? If so, then we're clearly behind TX in terms of growth for tech companies. Or is it the basic comp science tools like Oracle, C/C++, Perl/Java/Python, etc which a person can pick up on the job, after a class or two in algorithms.

I still look at the key top brass companies of my youth: Digital Equipment Corp, Wang, Polaroid, John Hancock Insurance, & First Boston and none of them are around anymore. These places were the bedrock of the region; they were not fly-by-night companies like Genuity. So when old timers like John P mention that people *grew into* their mortgages, well, that implies having a job where one can grow. All I see today are jobs where re-locating is the key to staying marketable, not staying put. If these are the economic fundamentals of the region then really, the people buying houses should be either doctors, law partners, or hedge fund traders [ who don't like southern CT ], not regular workers.
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