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Karl Case is "optimistic" about the housing market
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mpr



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:

I love how MPR throws out the race card and then retracts it in a way where he's still trying to stick the knife in. "Sorry that my calling you a racist hits a sore spot." Go fuck yourself.


You're all class John.

I just asked if it was a coincidence. This was your chance to explain to us
why you choose these specific targets for your vitriol as opposed to all the
others, and that yes it is a coincidence.

But, tellingly, you've passed up that opportunity ...
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
why you choose these specific targets for your vitriol as opposed to all the others


One of the reasons why the race card irritates without end is the fact that it hides the person in question. Realize, if one's family was either a part of let's say the British Overseas Empire or the Old South, then in a sense, one's not allowed to speak about someone of a different race for fear of being labeled a 21st century plantation owner like someone's great-grand father. Today, this is the shared among many white Americans, whether or not their ancestors were a part of some past injustice, since in effect, their race is what got 'em their foothold in America to begin with.

Now, what I see as the problem with the Tea Party/Libertarian opposition is that in the end, they become an unknowing sock puppet platform for the fundamentalists or the robber barons and not some pro-middle class party for the ordinary Joes and Janes. And in the case of the Pelosi/Obama teams, just another party member with his own agenda, not to dissimilar to a high school/college clique of fraternizers who get ahead by association with the pretense of serving the greater good. In both cases, the end result is the same, DC remains DC, and corruption continues unabated.
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the This American Life's about healthcare I mentioned.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/sites/all/play_music/play_full.php?play=391
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/sites/all/play_music/play_full.php?play=392

FWIW I dont think John is a racist or a homophobe but I would think there is a very good chance the people supplying his information (or at least paying for it) are. I think this just fits with BostonITers picture of us poor people being pitted against each other so we dont pay too much attention to the real actions and events.

The damning information on Obama or Patrick is no more or less than the damning information on Bush and that got nowhere. If this does stick it is because Republicans are better at throwing mud than Democrats. I forget who said this but: "Anyone who is prepared to do what it takes to be president should be instantly disqualified."
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's get back on topic and discuss how someone should sell me their house for a 2001 price!
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think someone should sell you an house. Furthermore I think they should only ask to equivalent price to what they would have paid in 2001.
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Renting in Mass



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
Location: In a house I bought in December 2011

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's more like it Smile
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mpr



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:28 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaidran wrote:

FWIW I dont think John is a racist or a homophobe but I would think there is a very good chance the people supplying his information (or at least paying for it) are.


I think this is less of a difference than you might think.
On the one hand, I'm sure everyone in this chain would deny they were
a bigot, and would pass a lie detector test to that effect. On the other hand,
everyone gets their information somewhere and forms their views somehow.
At what point to you deem the views "intrinsic" ?

Oh, and lets not forget the Community Reinvestment Act - aka
access to mortgages for black people - another favorite topic.
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree, I think it makes the argument all the more plausible, for Fox News to give John all the "facts" then let him go. I sincerely believe he is not racist and the accusations he makes are race neutral. Yet he still promotes what is arguably a racist agenda but with the moral certainty that he is not racist. So when he is accused of this he gets justifiably upset. The upshot of which is that it becomes even harder for us to come to any sort of agreement, or even really see each others point of view. Maybe Fox is not racist at all, maybe their hatred of Team Blue is so overarching that they don't have any left for Team Black. The point is essentially the same given "evidence" and a cause, we are forced to fight each other for essentially made up reasons, when in reality the difference between the parties is tiny.

I'm using this as an example, I'm sure the left would do something similar if they could get it together to the level of Fox, though MSNBC seems to be getting there.
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mpr



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaidran wrote:
I sincerely believe he is not racist and the accusations he makes are race neutral. Yet he still promotes what is arguably a racist agenda but with the moral certainty that he is not racist.


If the only people you're willing to label racist are those who are
aware that they're racist you'd find only a very small number - perhaps a few
white supremacists - I believe most bigots deny they are bigots and they honestly believe they are not. In particular, as I said, I'd be willing to bet
that everyone in John's sources of info could pass a lie detector test that
they are not racists. Certainly everyone on Fox news could. So they all have
the same moral certainty as John.

Maybe its a question of semantics and you'd prefer some other term
for people who don't actually self identify as racist.

Trying to tease apart people's psychological motivations and discerning,
for example, to what extent they'd still hate Obama if he were white
is a difficult, and to some extent meaningless business. I think its better
just to look at people's actions, including the views they espouse.
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:15 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is where I'm not buying it. I dont think Fox would be any more pro-president if Obama was white. Any racism is likely incidental, though I would not be surprised if the people pulling the strings were racist themselves. I think at this stage the general feeling against Team Blue is so strong that Team Black does not even get a look in. Possibly if we introduce Team Muslim you might have more of a point, and that might be why they try to push the idea that Obama is a Muslim.

I think if you go witch hunting for undercurrents of racism in the general population you will do nothing but alienate people further. I'd save the term "racist" for people that have really earned it.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe most bigots deny they are bigots and they honestly believe they are not


Well, I wasn't going to chime in but to me, it's clear that there are racists in my own immediate family, w/o naming names or positions in the household hierarchy. And yes, they'd deny being bigots because all New Englanders are suppose to be congenial and the all that good stuff. I know, however, that around certain groups that that veneer runs thin. Thus, if I can observe in others, growing up, I know that it exists in many more.

The problem here is that it's clear that a lot of people have sort of unconscious "Birth of a Nation" type of angst towards Obama which they wouldn't have towards let's say the CEO of Enron, BP, or CountryWide Financial. Thus, in a world of gray where no one's really on the up and up, Team Obama/Pelosi is vilified more than the ones who hide behind the Bible and Free Market fundamentalisms. Fox News is clearly tapping into this vein when they run with their spin and rhetoric.

On the other shoe, I agree with John, Obama is both a phony (since that '04 DNC speech, which BTW didn't inspire me) and is a corrupt Chicago politician but then again, other than a true independent like Ross Perot, who isn't? If you read about political machines, it's been going on since the 19th century with Tammany Hall and others. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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mpr



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaidran wrote:
This is where I'm not buying it. I dont think Fox would be any more pro-president if Obama was white. Any racism is likely incidental


Amazingly, this is a much better defence of Fox - which probably is reasonably
equal opportunity in its hatred for Democrats - than of someone whose
favorite topics are Obama, Patrick, Frank and the CRA.

Kaidran wrote:

I think if you go witch hunting for undercurrents of racism in the general population you will do nothing but alienate people further. I'd save the term "racist" for people that have really earned it.


I just asked the question. I'd hardly call this a witch hunt, but the
phrase "the lady doth protest too much" does come to mind. Smile
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I am completely naive. I would question the level of BostonITers family's bigotry though. How does it compare to say Christian vs atheist, Red Socks vs Yankies. or Red vs Blue? Not that it is justified but does it really influence their decisions that much? Also how much of it is really black vs white and how much is middle class vs poor? Personally I would reserve the term for people that were actively trying to damage racial group members, specifically for being a member of that group.

I guess my only real point is that if you go around accusing (or suggesting) people are racist what sort of response are you expecting? It pretty much ends any chance of a conversation, let alone a resolution.
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Boston ITer



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not that it is justified but does it really influence their decisions that much?


I would say that it does because ultimately, the younger kids need to make friends, independent of that person's racial/ethnic identification. Of course the elder ones can't impose final decision making but their influence is all over the place. And the gap between middle class and poor is really only about domicile, like Southie vs other towns. So a white family, from a poor West Virginia trailer park, is quite "equal", once they move to let's say Morganstown or Pittsburgh and find themselves *meaningful* work. That person may have a lot more support for being Governor than a Patrick or Obama.

Quote:
I guess my only real point is that if you go around accusing (or suggesting) people are racist what sort of response are you expecting?


The point is that you're never suppose to call anyone racist unless they're a card carrying KKK member & New England, being the home of early American liberalism, like the Abolitionist movement of the 1800s, has to be more polite than let's say Chattanooga where you'll hear more daily racist vignettes.

What I believe Fox News & other right media types have done is flame an unconscious flame, where a group type of neurosis has been awakened. This is perplexing to someone like me because I tended to avoid group think & came up with a lot of my own ideas about science/engineering work during my schooling and career. And that idea was that it's the primary reason for the American century (not some lofty tax breaks) along with avoiding both World Wars on the North American continent.

In 1980, the govt debt was $1 trillion dollars & it had alarmed a lot of people because of the staggering dollar amounts of the time. Then, over the course of the consequent years, "deficits didn't matter" and the economy hummed along. Then suddenly, it's 2008-2010, and then deficits mattered again and "socialists" were taking over the country. Well, where were all the Tea Parties for the past 30 years, if folks were so concerned about red ink? And how did Hank Paulson, the first bailout in chief, mysteriously disappear off the radar? Ultimately, since we do have Fed-induced systemic inflation, if deficits didn't matter then, it probably won't matter in the future either, isn't that correct? It's not an individual's debt but that carried by partner central banks and govt bondholders.

And that's when I recalled 'Birth of a Nation', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_of_a_nation

I noticed the stunning parallels between the film character, Silas Lynch, and Obama where the Lynch, also being half-White/half-Black, wanted to remake the old South into a racially integrated society but also had many shortcomings in terms of mainstay political corruption. This political corruption, now consisting of newly freed slaves, along with liberal northern supporters, alienated the southern whites and thus, the KKK was born.

Fast forward a century and what do we have ... a govt already in debt (no different than any other time in history) but then out of the blue, alienated conservative voters decided that deficits mattered, socialists were taking over, & that tax cuts (without real science/engineering a/o manufacturing/production work) fixed modern economies. Thus, the lightening rod was another outsider, who is *identified* as a non-American leaning leader (wanting wealth redistribution to the "poor & minorities") just like Birth of a Nation's Lynch was an illegitimate leader for the old South. And then from the ashes, we have Tea Parties and pro-American groups popping up everywhere. For me, this is too much of a harmonic to be pure coincidence, having to do with class vs race alone.
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Kaidran



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure how I would define "racism" and I would leave that for people much cleverer than me. I'd say I'll know it when I see it. Since I've never met your family maybe I'm completely off base with this.

I think people inherently have their own comfort preferences. I could well believe parents being concerned about their kids hanging out with anyone outside their group. I've not encountered any prejudicial sentiment in the playgroups my kids go to.

The analogy you make of a white family leaving a trailer park and doing well with a better job in the city still does not address the problem to me. I'd still argue that the hard part is going from poor to rich. Color does not make it any easier but are suburban middle class white really still nervous if a black middle class family moves in next door?

Again maybe I'm completely wrong on this but if so it would fairly fundamentally change my view of the US (or at least the "liberal" states).
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