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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, another thing. The "vital few" not only has to be hard working, talented, motivated, etc. they also have to be benevolent. They are not vital if they keep all the money. Back in the day, the elites like Carnagie, Dupont, etc. gave money back, built libraries etc. Even John F. Kennedy used to say "To whom much is given, much is expected". Today, most of the kids at Harvard (outside of medical and science) don't seem to give a shit about anything but themselves, and the ones that do don't know how to make things work. Our "vital few" are not our "elites" because our elite institutions have divorced themselves from how things work. I know this from two perspectives: first I know Harvard Graduate School of Design Graduates who are architects. They tell me that Harvard doesn't teach them how to build, they just teach them theory. These graduates come out without the ability to construct a simple wall section which is what directs the contractor as to how to build the structure. There is a total disconnect. These graduate try to talk about the difference between a "design architect" and a "production architect". The absurdity of this would be like Robert Frost saying "gee I'd like to write a poem about someone who is in a crossroads and has to make a decision and chooses the path that others seem to avoid" and then asking a "production" person to work out the details and actually write the poem.

From another perspective, I have an Master in Business Administration. Harvard MBA's will tell you about the difference between a "leader and a manager". The "leader" talks about lofty theory and does goal setting, while the "manager" is the lowly one who gets his/her hands dirty and makes things happen. Well over time, people just don't give a shit about being a "production" person or "manager" and they want to float around like a "leader" or "philosopher king" because the pay is better, you get more respect, you don't have to deal with deadlines, you can sit in a position where you interview as opposed to have to deliver answers, etc. Who the hell wouldn't want this role in society. So what do you get but self centered, and self motivated lazy people choking the powers of our system.

Obama got into power by pointing to the graph that showed the wealth being concentrated to the top 1% over the past 8 years. he was right, but in my view, increasing government spending wasn't the way to change that. Obama was right to point out that today's "vital few" are a bit more selfish and aren't letting things "trickle down". What he didn't address was that the masses were also selfish and weren't spending their wealth in the U.S. either (spending their money on foreign cheaper products taking jobs away from their fellow citizens as well). What Obama didn't address was that it wasn't so much that the wealth was driven by the rich sponging off the poor but the jobs going over seas and the rich having the ability to invest in the emerging overseas markets. The old Union argument about the hard working workers versus the rich "fat cats" didn't address globalization. How could the rich fat cats afford to pay their salaries when their competition was working for the price of rice? Clinton signed NAFTA and that kind of hurt Hillary Clinton in the Primary, especially in the northern manufacturing States.

My more recent posts have gotten into Religion and values because I think what we're going to find is that our "Vital Few" won't just be based on SAT scores and achievement, (those guys can be selfish assholes), the Vital Few will be those that actually care about their fellow man AND can compete. It requires a balance of the selfish and altruistic gene, a tribal mentality where you drive for success and you care about your fellow beings. Our Nation should be still driving the world in progress because we have historically been on the forefront of tolerance so we have an ultimate set of tools to get things done. Although we have diversity we need a willingness for individuals to be serviceable to their fellow man. With the crimes committed within some of the main stream Religions, many have just felt that Religion is part of our past and we have evolved or progressed beyond. We see those little bumper stickers that show the symbol of Christ, the fish with little legs on them, denoting Darwinism as progress from Christianity. To me, Christ wasn't an asshole that wanted us to fight with one another, rape children, etc. In fact his teachings actually align with Darwinism insofar as an altruistic and peaceful society that Christ preached about would actually be one with fewer wars, more wealth, less impact on the environment, etc. Trying to be competitive and altruistic is extremely difficult. Christ carried a cross and to many today, living honorably and honestly and caring about others and having your eyes open to today's Lazarus is a weight we also have to carry. Christ told us that when we got tired to take his yoke and he would carry us when we get weary. Instead of shrugging like Atlas, you get renewed life and energy by being part of the vine of the holy spirit, the life giving source that ties us together and makes us all more strong and healthy.

History will prove that as Religion waned, our society got more selfish and we stopped looking out for one another.
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admin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:
Back in the day, the elites like Carnagie, Dupont, etc. gave money back, built libraries etc.


I was under the impression (though haven't actually run the numbers) that this is even more common now:

http://givingpledge.org/

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john p



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library

Think about how many towns in Massachusetts had these gorgeous libraries built and paid for by Carnegie.

Most of these were so well built that they are serving us today.

How many George Soros or Koch Brothers libraries are there?

Many give for public relations or drive a Prius even though they fly all over the world or live in 10,000 s.f. houses, but how many people give until it hurts?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:19 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:

Many give for public relations or drive a Prius even though they fly all over the world or live in 10,000 s.f. houses, but how many people give until it hurts?


Carnegie didn't exactly live like a pauper either.

Did you look at the Giving Pledge list of wealthy individuals/families giving away the majority of their wealth? It's impressive.

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john p



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.newsbatch.com/religion.htm


from above:

Quote:
Other measures of religious fervor are less indicative of this trend. Only a slight majority of Americans now consider religion "very important" in their lives, down from 70% in the 1960's



Greed from the masses is emblematic here:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Public-employee-unions-funnel-public-money-to-Dems-1342297-105812358.html

from above:

[quote]AFSCME's No. 1 status is emblematic of a change in the union movement over the years. Before public employee unions won the right to represent employees in New York City in 1958 and federal employees in 1962, almost all union members worked in the private sector.

But unions today represent only 7 percent of private-sector workers. In 2009, for the first time in history, most union members were public employees.
Quote:


Now John F. Kennedy allowed the government workers to unionize in the 1960's because at the time 70% were religious and people got involved in the Peace Corps, and they still had hard working industrious values. As people spent a career in a red tape, bloated environment their values fell apart and they became selfish. These public sector unions don't care how bad it is, they want more and more and more; and to think that it was a religious leader with a bleeding heart that provided a sanctuary for a job in the government to begin with, I mean lets face it, do you really think that the clerk in your town hall is having to work in unsafe conditions or has to work excessive hours?

This was one of John F. Kennedy's heros and one of the inspirations of the Peace Corp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweitzer

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Albert_Schweitzer

from above:

Schweitzer studied other world religions with sympathy. He was convinced that not only is all life sacred but that true Christianity, springing from the Spirit of Jesus, had yet to be developed. Schweitzer’s missionary work concentrated on service rather than conversion. His work in Africa inspired conservative Christians, particularly those who find kingdom-building rather than soul-winning more attractive. "The only ones among you who will be really happy," Schweitzer said, "are those who will have sought and found how to serve."
Quote:


also from above:



One morning in 1905 Schweitzer, then a charismatic and successful writer, cleric, musician, and lecturer with brilliant future prospects, experienced a profound religious revelation calling him to renounce worldly success and devote himself to the betterment of humankind. At age 30, Schweitzer answered the call of The Society Of The Evangelist Missions of Paris, who were looking for a medical doctor. He later wrote that the parable of Dives [rich man] and Lazarus had spoken to him. Europeans were "Dives," Africans were "Lazarus;" Dives had medical knowledge which he took for granted, while Lazarus suffered from illness and pain but has no doctors to help him. He planned to spread the Gospel by the example of his Christian labor of healing, instead of through the evangelical process of preaching, and believed that this service should be acceptable within any branch of Christian teaching.
Quote:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives

from above:


Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

He said, "I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torment."

But Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them."

He said, "No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent."

He said to him, "If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead."

– Luke 16:19–31
Quote:
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Boston ITer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Many doctors are, in fact, now openly calling for the immigration of foreign doctors to meet the demand.


I don't know which doctors you know but the ones I knew specifically would not do either a teaching career or engineering/science work because of the lack of respect & a lack of lucrative, continuous employment. I recall a brilliant MD/PhD candidate who specifically said that "an engineer can't afford to raise a family". Those were his words & he'd worked at DuPont before medical school.

If he were to find that he could be fired, by his hospital association, and be replaced with a newcomer at half-price from Romania, he would opt for a hedge fund career over being a doctor. At that sense, more Americans would shift to a lower cost Physician's Assistant program and be in a clinical setting but at a reduced salary, since in global markets, only true specialists earn a sports star's salary.
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Kaidran



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like you are assuming there were no rich misers 100 years ago John. Today I think of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. They will likely be remembered as Carnegie; others will be forgotten. I dont see any evidence to suggest any change over time. I do know though that everyone has nostalgic feelings for the good old days when none of this shit happened. Thing is, more or less it always has happened like this and it probably always will. If there are any differences it was probably just less well known 100 years ago. The fact that you can quote bible stories about this just says to me that thins in not a new phenomenon. Razz

As for Doctors salaries there was a This American Life a few months back that looked into the healthcare mess and a lot of it came back to the beginning of Medicare. To get the legislation passed doctors were promised ever increasing amounts for services that they would either deem unnecessary beforehand or do for free as part of a community obligation. I'll try and look it up if I get a chance.
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john p



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, Kadrian, I was rolling. I like to think that the good old days were good old days and I know I'm wrong on many occasions.

I guess as an architect I like to see actual stuff and I don't see any contemporary wealthy person building buildings in thousands of communities like Carnagie. I'm aware that they give billions to medical research for disease but that just didn't tie into my storyline... Smile

I wanted to give that guy the old Luis Tiant wind up (ask an older native Bostonian who likes the Red Sox).

Distilling back all the overdraft, I think that altruism is not as prevalent.

Now, Religion has been used by the State to control the masses and rational thought was a liberating force and obviously faith can be manipulated by those who seek to control, so I have no problems with people who are skeptical and critical of Religion, I just think that if religious people aren't harming anyone and are induced to actually be nice and kind why do they need to be made fun of.

I just watched this historical program about Religion in America (past 50-60 years or so) and Relgion here got kind of interwoven with politics. After WWII, Ike (Eisenhower) thought that a religious society was a peaceful and our Cold War enemy, the Soviet Union was supressing Religion and wanting to have an atheist state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

This is sort of where the fault line came where if you were atheist, some were skeptical that you were a communist. Then we had the whole McCarthy witch hunts and things got ugly.

Now this is a big deal because many of today's liberal Press have this seared into their memory. Keith Olberman signs off with "Good Night and Good Luck" which is an historical reference to the McCarthy verus Edward R. Murrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_night_and_good_luck

Edward R. Murrow was emblematical of the courage it took to stand up against an angry, delusional mob and how liberty needed to be protected for minorities and it pointed to our own intolerance against athiesm and the dangers of not grounding policy to rationality which is what many feel religious people don't do.

Although I agree with Olberman with the Mosque in that we have to sometimes absorb what might feel uncomfortable in order to uphold true freedom and how at times you have to stand up for the minority that is being targetted by the masses that haven't filtered their emotions with rationality, he's just as guilty because he's lobbing out acusations that the Repubicans are taking illegal foreign money before he had any proof. He further checked his rationality at the door when he got caught up in the Obama hype, and if he had been a tiny fraction as critical of Obama as he was towards Sara Palin he would have uncovered a lot of Obama's corruption i.e. getting graft from Tony Rezko. Bottom line is that the fault lines were drawn fifty years ago on this.

These impressions got deeper in our American history. This guy Billy Graham was this big preacher that everyone loved and he was really close to Richard Nixon, and then JFK came in and they didn't like him because he was Catholic.

After the Catholics became the dominant Religion (assuming you differentiate the different forms of Protestants), the Religious Right decided that Abortion was an issue that would divide the Catholics politically. Initially, Abortion was considered a "Catholic Issue" until the Religious Right got behind it. Catholics then had to choose between the Right Wing Abortion issue versus their value to take care of the least of their bretheren which they felt was addressed better with the Democrats (which is where my family lies).

As you saw these dirty Religious manipulators getting behind the scenes and wanting to pull the strings of power and be kingmakers, moderates got turned off of Relgion, and with the whole sexual raping of altar boys scandal, to many who were still hanging on, they were like "see you later". I have no problem with anyone who feels this way at all.

My point is that you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and Jesus Christ actually taught us to stand up to that angry mob when their laws told them to stone the prostitute, he said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". If we followed Christ's teachings we would be MORE tolerant, more forgiving, more giving, less hypocritical etc. At a certain point people saw Christianity not through what Christ taught but through those that were manipulating and polluting Christianity. It really isn't very different from those who look at all Muslims through the perspective of the extremists. I find the hypocrisy with liberals and conservatives in that the liberals will allow a Bill Maher speak freely about his contempt for those who are Christian but aren't tolerant for a Juan Williams who says he gets nervous when he see's someone in Muslim "garb" when he's getting on a plane. The conservatives get up in arms when people don't want to see a Nativity Scene on public property, yet won't want a Mosque near Ground Zero even though some of the victims of 9/11 were Muslim and we have Muslims who are fighting alongside us in our War on Terrorism. (adding contemporary context here a bit...)

I'll try to reach some of you using less religious speak which is off putting to some. In my MBA they had these charts expressing the type of cultures in a company. They said in the aspect of the degree in which coworkers actually sincerely cared about eachother it ranged from a "tribal" culture to a "mercenary" culture. People really cared about eachother or it was one of those deals where "the winner gets a trip to Hawaii and the loser gets FIRED", pitting people against eachother and having "prison" rules. Well, Christianity teaches us that we're all brothers and sisters of God and to treat strangers and the least of our "bretheren" as we would God. In one of the Beatitudes from the Sermon of the Mount, Christ taught that what you do to the least of your bretheren you are doing to him. Now what happens to a society when these Christian values get pulled out like a table cloth on a table setting? People act in a Christian manner even though they are first generation atheists, but they really don't know what a world would be like without a Religious context. Even they themselves are living in a set of values that were most likely passed down to them which were formed through Religion.

I guess I'm just observing people reacting based on dispositions and impressions made throughout history and these political fault lines make us just repeat the same old stupidity and even people who supposedly have learned these lessons, make the same mistakes just in an opposite hand view. We all thought that Obama could be that leader who could arrest the mob, but it seems to me that he's taking all that Union Money and they want protectionist trade policy and larger more bloated government to protect their wealth and pensions. I mean is he stepping up and confronting out of control spending or is he feeding the gorilla? Is he telling us the lessons of protectionist trade policy i.e. Smoot Hawley or is he stoking the foreign influence paranoia? His chief advisor, David Axelrod is fanning the flames of foreign influence via foreign money in our system, and saying that the Republicans are trying to "buy the election"; funny the liberal press didn't have that concern when Obama got a significantly larger amount than John McCain.

This is all a tangled hypocritical web and is part of the reason why our government and political process doesn't work and that is the context from which we are trying to sit together and solve some big issues...
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Kaidran



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think anyone is arguing that government works. The problems come when people start saying your side is the problem and my side has the answers.

If you are looking to watch FOX and MSNBC then thinking you have a balanced view I think you are missing the point. I think you are looking at the worst of America on both counts.

My personal experience with religious people is that they do what they were going to do without it, just with more fervor. Nice people act nicely, mean people act mean, just with righteous affirmation to back up their decisions.
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john p



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.

I do think that culture is shaped by formats like Religion. I mean in corporate culture people often say "don't blame the player, blame the game".

Bill O'Reilly (FOX) asked Charles Krauthammer if it was ok that General Electric took all this Bailout Money even though they were profitable? Krauthammer said, of course, they have an obligation to their shareholders to do what gives them the most profit and if the Government is handing out the money they'd be fools not to take it, so don't blame GE for taking it, blame the Government for making it available.

I have even heard people say that you should take advantage of every single benefit that is available to you, otherwise you're just walking away from part of your compensation. Now, in order for health care to remain low, shouldn't people govern themselves and not be wasteful. I grew up in a working class family and we learned at dinner not to take seconds before others had their first serving. In today's world, where do you learn that? Now I grew up in Lynnfield and lots of the wealthy people there taught their kids to be agressive and selfish so they'd be better equipped in a capitalistic world. I saw first hand those that were old school and those that were brats. This is where my viewpoint is coming from and I know that had I not experienced that sort of thing, it would be different....
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Boston ITer



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now, in order for health care to remain low, shouldn't people govern themselves and not be wasteful. I grew up in a working class family and we learned at dinner not to take seconds before others had their first serving. In today's world, where do you learn that? Now I grew up in Lynnfield and lots of the wealthy people there taught their kids to be agressive and selfish so they'd be better equipped in a capitalistic world.


John, I'm getting a sense that you're confusing the *Golden Rule*, which is found in many of the world's beliefs including the eastern ones vs religion which is about doctrines and being a part of an exclusive group, us vs them.

Well, the reason for the Golden Rule is simple, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. The reason why the rich do it is because of a sense of being above the law and untouchable by the masses. The reason why common sense middle classers try to stick with common sense is that someday, they too might be on the receiving end.

Sorry, I'd prefer to be in a modern world than back with the Salem Witch Trials or when 11 years old kids were getting mangled in factories during Upton Sinclair times.
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balor123



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boston ITer wrote:

I don't know which doctors you know but the ones I knew specifically would not do either a teaching career or engineering/science work because of the lack of respect & a lack of lucrative, continuous employment. I recall a brilliant MD/PhD candidate who specifically said that "an engineer can't afford to raise a family". Those were his words & he'd worked at DuPont before medical school.


It's funny that you mention that because a friend of mine from Cornell who started out studying CS went MD for this very reason.
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john p



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry, I'd prefer to be in a modern world than back with the Salem Witch Trials or when 11 years old kids were getting mangled in factories during Upton Sinclair times.


Blaming Religion on the Salem Witch Trials is like blaming "Muslims" for 9/11.

A world without Religion would be worse than the Upton Sinclair times. What do you think the Soviet Union was like post WWII? In fact, it was Christian Values that helped us work together and progress to where we are today.
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Boston ITer



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A world without Religion


I call BS on this. Even in Soviet Russia, there were a lot of practicing Orthodox Christians, just not practicing in public. The idea of spirituality is in the heart, not objectified into cult of personality leaders. Yes, you can replace the visage of a Stalin with an Auto De Fé Tomas Torquemada & you get the same result, brutality in the same of *something* else.

Thus, your world w/o religion is already an oxymoron. Even Genghis Khan was a Shaman and he supported Shaolin/Buddhist shrines for he saw the wisdom in what they were doing from his minimalist pov. And if there ever was a "Warlord", Genghis Khan was it. There is no such world as a world w/o religion.

What you're upset about is that people aren't buying into the indoctrination of a Jesuit or in the case of self-righteous America, Falwellian type of schooling programs where kids can't think for themselves after the age of 10. So thus, if a cult of personality person holds up the Bible and then he forces kids to work in mines, then it's ok because at least on the surface, you get John Adam's polite society so everyone watching each other and the middle class appears to be prim and proper, while the lesser classes or persons from the 3rd world get to work in mining camps.
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john p



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Moral_Sentiments

Adam Smith wrote the Theory of Moral Sentiments before he wrote the Wealth of Nations. It was the foundation of morality that you could build a society. Think about it, if people lied to eachother it would be hard to work together. By abiding to certain morals we fit together and are able to work to achieve greater things.

Not every War was fought for the sake of Religion. Governments have waged war; should we eliminate all forms of government?

People are suceptable to hero worship i.e. Obama. Obama isn't a religious person but a lot of people checked rationality at the door when they were fawning all over him weren't they?

I liked what Kadrian said:

Quote:
My personal experience with religious people is that they do what they were going to do without it, just with more fervor. Nice people act nicely, mean people act mean, just with righteous affirmation to back up their decisions.


I guess "righteous affirmation" shouldn't be that high and mighty preachy stuff, it should be the basis of what is socially accepted.

Think about it, if someone lies on their resume, is that a big deal, a small deal or no big deal at all?

Like I said, I grew up in a wealthy town and I met one of the kids I grew up with who got a job in the finance industry through personal contacts, and I was with him when he was telling another guy that he should walk away from his mortgage. This other guy was leaving the country for a few years so his credit wasn't going to be an issue in the near future.

Think about STRATEGIC DEFAULT. Why should someone continue to pay their mortgage when they are so under water that it doesn't make sense? What if there is no moral obligation to honor a contract? What kind of society would it be like if people walked away from contracts when it suited them? Why stand and deliver?

Don't think for a second that right now has nothing to do with morality. All these bailouts have to do with morality.

Think about all the Democrats who talk about how the mean old 1% take all the money from the weak. Then ask yourself, is there any easier way to take a weak person's money than at a casino? 11.7 Billion dollars are lost in CT, much of which comes from people who have a very low personal savings rate, if they save at all. Think about how many people, how many households's personal savings 11.7 Billion dollars represents. The Democrats, the fighters for the poor, are wanting to start a $15 Billion casino operation here in Massachusetts. If Mass gets casinos, so too will New Hampshire and Maine and then think about how many $Billions will be drained, and how much of that will come from the poor year over year over year? That's a lot of poor people being preyed on. Why bother create welfare programs when you're just going to let the casino industry drain like 30% of the personal savings of the every day households per year? Casinos never passed before because people understood that casinos preyed on the poor and people ACTUALLY cared about the poor. It is a total joke that Democrats pretend to actually care about the poor but are handing the keys to the henhouse to the predators. As our morals erode, so isn't the foundation of our economy.(Theory of Moral Sentiment).

Look at the financial collapse, it was a bunch of ....'s with no morals that caused these problems and the rest of us suckers have to bail out everyone else because we have the morals to pick up the mess, and the rest who don't strategically default can't even refinance. People who have morals are getting dumped on. Years ago, being a good citizen was about "working hard and playing by the rules". Years ago it was shunned upon when the wealthy avoided going to War, today even guys like John Kerry say, if you don't work hard in school you might end up having to fight in Afghanistan. Today, if you talk about any form of morality people treat you like you are some Jerry Fallwell hypocritical freak. Think about how many people put down religion and take for granted the benefits it provides a society? It is cool to make fun of Religion don't you think? It isn't about being high and mighty and self righteous, it is about having a moral standard whereby we can conduct business and live in a respectful socity. When the finance industry starts to play by prison rules, someone ought to throw the penalty flag at them, other wise you get a moral hazard and people who are living by the rules get pissed and feel like suckers bailing out the deadbeats and those with self created hardships.
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