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Assisting the Foolish, Punishing the Responsible
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Hank
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:

It is an insult to those who play by the rules to have to bail out those that overextended.

Isn't this what we have PMI for? I wonder if the insurance companies are behind some of this?


Well they didn't play by the rules, and one of the things that they did was borrow 100% of the money (80/20 loans) to get around PMI. I'd say that it's the lenders who are pushing for the bailout, as they have the most to loose, and are the most reaching.

Sadly, I do see a bail out- and while my personal leanings are Democrat in nature, I am falling into the "Stand up and take responsibility for your own damn actions" that age and wisdom bestow- or I'm just bitter that a house would code 5x my annual salary Very Happy .

How this will shake out in the end will be one of the most interesting things we'll all see in our lifetimes, I believe.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree, I think this is a test for our society. Housing is a common asset that we all need. How we respond to this situation will be very telling as to what our constitution is. I'm middle of the road politically because on the one hand I think that you need to let commerce be, and on the other if some are in a position where they could wreak havoc on others like structural engineers, they need to be licensed by the society and held to a professional standard.

Sadly, in this situation neither the individual exercised personal responsibility and the "professional" exercise professional responsibility.

As a licensed professional it is often frustrating to see greedy people get away with acting like children. Do you know I called the State Licensing Board and asked if the professional who stamped the tunnel ceiling details for the tunnel that collapsed was still licensed to practice in our Commonwealth, and they told me that the company’s lawyers were preparing a report for their review? So the engineer who came up with the ridiculous detail could still be out there designing more. It appears that the non-professionals put the arm on the professionals in the tunnel ceiling collapse and they got away with it. Further, we don't seem to be able to call to task those responsible. The corporate shield is stronger than our justice system's ability to bring to justice those responsible.

In this society, capitalism can only prevail if we have responsible leaders operating in a professional conduct accountable to the society. The pseudo professionals of today are disrupting the fundamentals in many areas of our society.

This is important because people have to learn that they can't fly that close to the sun without being burned.
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Booba
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:
I totally agree, I think this is a test for our society. Housing is a common asset that we all need. How we respond to this situation will be very telling as to what our constitution is.


Yes, great point!
American Goverment in deep debts.
American saving rate in 2006 is -1%.
The average credit card balance per person in America is $9,200.
And newspapers now are full of "sad" stories about janitors with 25K annual income that bought hiuse for 300K or about a lady with 40K salary that bought 700K house, etc.
Yes, we all nee a place to live.
But 35% Americans (more than 105 millions!) are still renting!
So, those guys who wanted "high life" that they didn't earn can also foreclosure their homes and go renting!
IF WE BAIL THEM, we will send clear signal to ALL irresposible borrowers:
guys, it's ok to borrow as much as you can!

We will bail you, if you cannot repay your debts!
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lfod
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:38 am GMT    Post subject: its still crazy out there Reply with quote

I realy am confused by the media on this issue. How lazy and stupid is the average reporter these days? Why have we not seen better reportage on the RE bubble, like you see in this blog? What I am saying is that there were certain drivers for the bubble:
1-Good economy, dot com money, finance boom
2-Tight building supply, ridiculous Mass town zoning that is anti-development in most suburban towns.
3-Speculators and house flippers buying up houses
4-huge amount of cheap mortgages given to people who would never have qualified and who borrowed much more than they could afford
Numbers 1,2 have been pretty constant for a long time, so they could not have been at the root of the bubble. The bubble must have been due to 3, and 4. Now that these are being fixed, why are prices not coming down much? I still see really crummy 50's and 60's era splits and ranches, "Granny houses", that look about to fall over, selling for $400-600K anywhere within the 495 loop and if you go outside 495, a small cheaply built 80, 90s house still goes for almost $600K in most towns. Its still insane.
We work two jobs and we still cannot afford anything decent in a good school district. Now our taxes go to people who gambled on ARMs and crazy loans. Its so unfair.
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Flipper
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simply stated - Stop the Homeowner Welfare Act of 2007!
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comma
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other factors to consider for the bubble were rediculously low interest rates, (which made it easier to borrow but made it less than desirable to save or invest) and that Mass is an area where there is a giant ebb and flow of population due to the number of colleges in the state. A post 911 psychological desire to be safe, (in a home), I think also added to increases in price as well. Furthermore, I think that Mass has a bit of a belief that we are more connected to N.Y. than we are, causing people to think that we should have a closer similarity to N.Y. prices, even though we are infact quite a different area with different dynamics. Our taxes may go to help some of these people, but don't forget that property taxes have increased a great deal over this same time period. I just wonder how you protect some of these people without keeping inflated prices up, and giving money to predatory lenders? A foreclosure tax, maybe? Lenders, mortgage brokers, etc. could be taxed a point on the loan for foreclosures that take place within 3 years of the initial closing (which is often a sign that the initial loan was predatory). I don't know, anybody have any other ideas?
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Dorchester grandma
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:51 pm GMT    Post subject: How about renters? Reply with quote

I am still renting after looking for a decent place to buy for two years. I could have bought a nice condo by now if I had been willing to take out an exotic loan instead of a 30 year fixed which no doubt would get me into great financial trouble down the road.

I have had to rent a room in my triple decker apartment in order to afford it and living with various roommates who come as strangers has not been easy. I work full time and net about $425 per week unless I do overtime which is tiring at age 62. I have had to pay the $1100 per month by myself for as much as 6 months at a time, which leaves me with very little to live on. As a renter, I don't get a break on my federal taxes either. And NO I don't want to move into, God Forbid, senior housing!!!

Too bad for people who have overextended themselves and go into foreclosure! If I can't pay my rent, I will lose the roof over my head too. I don't mean to complain or paint a sad picture of myself however, I want to point out that renters get no bail-outs or perks of any kind.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been a lot of cogent and valid arguments on this forum, but you are all missing the bottom line. This action has nothing to do with what is fair or what is right or what is even good for society as a whole. I have to be cynical, but this is all about who has donated to Chuck Shummer and Chris Dodd and other lawmakers. If you look, they have been financed heavily by mortgage lenders. I was planning to vote democrat in the next election cycle, this issue will swing me over to Republican and the idea of personal responsiblity.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodd with this and Patrick with the phone call. It's tough finding a home in any political party. The Republicans don't seem to be taking much in the order of personal responsiblity if you look at it openly. They need money to run. Its bad when you have to deal with this nonsense but this is what we get with today's broadcasting age and the money it takes to win an election...
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Booba
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: How about renters? Reply with quote

Dorchester grandma wrote:
I am still renting after looking for a decent place to buy for two years. I could have bought a nice condo by now if I had been willing to take out an exotic loan instead of a 30 year fixed which no doubt would get me into great financial trouble down the road.

Too bad for people who have overextended themselves and go into foreclosure! If I can't pay my rent, I will lose the roof over my head too. I don't mean to complain or paint a sad picture of myself however, I want to point out that renters get no bail-outs or perks of any kind.


So, resposible Dorchester Grandma that was smart enough to not jump into stupidity of "exotic" loans doesn not deserve any media or state politicians or "community groups" attention, right?
Yes, we protect iditots that spill hot cofee on her knees and blame McDonald's for that. We "protect" slackers that don't want to work saying they experirnce "discrimination".
Now we want to "protect" so-called "home owners" and make hard-working people with common sense to pay for their stupidity.
Don't use think it's enough?
We must clearly tell politicians:
Guys, the foreclosure rate is 1 per 1,200 homeowners in MA.
So, you want 1,199 responsible families to pay for 1 idiot.
Do you expect your rating will up after that?
Do you expects someone else, but those 1 idiot will vote for you next time?
Think of it, Senator Dodd, Sentor Clinton, Senator Kennedy!
Republicans keep silence, because stupid Democrats already gave them a great weapon: "foreclosure bailout" proposals!
And they will use this weapon! I don't think working America, regardless its political preferences, will allow politicians to ripp them off!
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RMG
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, given that anyone who may have sent a letter to their state reps opposing foreclosure assistance, it appears that, alas, we will be stomped on.

Coupled with the fact that it appears that areas such as Cape Cod, and in some respects Boston, show that idiots keep buying homes, I find myself shaking my head and saying, "Only in Massacusetts, sigh."

For the first time in a long time, I feel as though home prices are going to go back up soon.

Seeing as I only talk it as I see it, please someone tell me it ain't so.

...back to $400,000 moldy cottages
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admin
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 1826
Location: Greater Boston

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

RMG wrote:
For the first time in a long time, I feel as though home prices are going to go back up soon.

Seeing as I only talk it as I see it, please someone tell me it ain't so.


It ain't so, at least not according to the futures market (which I think is the probably the best predictor by far). Futures on the S&P/Case-Shiller Index for Boston are predicting further, and deepening declines for as far ahead as they look, which is currently to February 2008. Here are some relevant links:


- admin
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